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Old 03-24-2009, 06:49 PM   #11
Liam Dougherty Springer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
depends on the sport....like all things above....what is the effort level, how long are the periods of exertion, etc. A pole vaulter and NFL running back would not be the same. For professional sports involving explosion over 30sec and < 2-3 min (glycolitic), they need glycogen....which needs to be already in the muscles. Now extend that over 2-3 hours like a hockey game and you bet your ass they will probably need some gatorade....but that's just during the game.
come on Mike I know you got some gold.... I am trying to find the study you posted a link to by a University in Texas about working out fasted

a post from Steven Low (I believe) a while back regarding the Metabolism's compromised ability to utilize glycogen and fat in the presence of insulin

Also something regarding the benefits as far as protein sparing and glycogen restoration efficiency due to insulin sensitivity. That would really solidify the argument for a diet different for training and game day for one. As you stated drink Gatorade when the player is exerting himself during the game as he sits on the bench during the longer (I know they are still short as far as digestion goes) breaks between plays for that particular player. Not all day every day.

No body is trying to insult anyone or hurt egos it just a want for information an a specific subject.
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Old 03-25-2009, 06:35 AM   #12
Darryl Shaw
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Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
I'd be more interested in a study comparing diet protocols of the SAME amount of calories and different ratios of macroutrient intake rather than you using every thread as an opportunity to dismiss everything but a high carb diet as ideal.
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrit...fat_adaptation
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Old 03-25-2009, 07:25 AM   #13
Liam Dougherty Springer
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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
That study was actually pretty cool... If the information is taken out of the context of only endurance athletes the protocol would IMO look more like this.

Muscle glycogen stores should be kept at an optimal level for the energy requirements of the athlete. Based on those energy requirements the most efficient way to restore glycogen is immediately PWO with High GI nutrient dense sources along with protein in order to aid recovery. The full amount of carbohydrates should be consumed within the first two hours as the metabolism prefers muscle glycogen storage within the recovery window and this will enable increased recovery for the next WO. Increased intramuscular Triglyceride storage and usage has been shown to improve athletic performance and increase available energy so having a diet composed of 35-55% fat by calories is optimal for appropriate metabolic response. (I got some of that from the study Donald posted and keep in mind that WAS for endurance athletes)

I don't think any one here is saying the Atkins diet is best for marathon runners (I am not). Carbohydrates play an important roll in energy availability and recovery and need to be in an athletes diet. In APROPRIATE amounts.
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Old 03-25-2009, 07:54 AM   #14
Darryl Shaw
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Liam,

You might find this article on nutrient timing interesting.

Quote:
International Society of Sports Nutrition position stand: Nutrient timing.

ABSTRACT


Position Statement: The position of the Society regarding nutrient timing and the intake of carbohydrates, proteins, and fats in reference to healthy, exercising individuals is summarized by the following eight points: 1.) Maximal endogenous glycogen stores are best promoted by following a high-glycemic, high-carbohydrate (CHO) diet (600 – 1000 grams CHO or ~8 – 10 g CHO/kg/d), and ingestion of free amino acids and protein (PRO) alone or in combination with CHO before resistance exercise can maximally stimulate protein synthesis. 2.) During exercise, CHO should be consumed at a rate of 30 – 60 grams of CHO/hour in a 6 – 8% CHO solution (8 – 16 fluid ounces) every 10 – 15 minutes. Adding PRO to create a CHO:PRO ratio of 3 – 4:1 may increase endurance performance and maximally promotes glycogen re-synthesis during acute and subsequent bouts of endurance exercise. 3.) Ingesting CHO alone or in combination with PRO during resistance exercise increases muscle glycogen, offsets muscle damage, and facilitates greater training adaptations after either acute or prolonged periods of supplementation with resistance training. 4.) Post-exercise (within 30 minutes) consumption of CHO at high dosages (8 – 10 g CHO/kg/day) have been shown to stimulate muscle glycogen re-synthesis, while adding PRO (0.2 g – 0.5 g PRO/kg/day) to CHO at a ratio of 3 – 4:1 (CHO: PRO) may further enhance glycogen re-synthesis. 5.) Post-exercise ingestion (immediately to 3 h post) of amino acids, primarily essential amino acids, has been shown to stimulate robust increases in muscle protein synthesis, while the addition of CHO may stimulate even greater levels of protein synthesis. Additionally, pre-exercise consumption of a CHO + PRO supplement may result in peak levels of protein synthesis. 6.) During consistent, prolonged resistance training, post-exercise consumption of varying doses of CHO + PRO supplements in varying dosages have been shown to stimulate improvements in strength and body composition when compared to control or placebo conditions. 7.) The addition of creatine (Cr) (0.1 g Cr/kg/day) to a CHO + PRO supplement may facilitate even greater adaptations to resistance training. 8.) Nutrient timing incorporates the use of methodical planning and eating of whole foods, nutrients extracted from food, and other sources. The timing of the energy intake and the ratio of certain ingested macronutrients are likely the attributes which allow for enhanced recovery and tissue repair following high-volume exercise, augmented muscle protein synthesis, and improved mood states when compared with unplanned or traditional strategies of nutrient intake.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...medid=18834505
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Old 03-25-2009, 08:01 AM   #15
Liam Dougherty Springer
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Here is a study showing reduced Free Fatty Acid storage increases CHO usage durring energy expenditure.... so fat being used spares the glycogen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12556353

I realise that past 100% VO2Max primarily if not solely glycogen will be used.
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Old 03-25-2009, 08:52 AM   #16
Liam Dougherty Springer
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Here is an interesting article haveing to do with pre exercise feeding once again dealing with indurence athletes but still interesting
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l15ur525556364tl/

Makes me wonder where equivalent energy came from in the placebo since there was no large difference in glycogen use. Seems to be consistent with the idea fat can buffer glycogen use I would be interested to see what happens down the road as the glucose levels drop further.
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Old 03-25-2009, 10:58 PM   #17
Steven Low
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Play around with PubMed some.

There's huge problems in most of the nutritional studies they do though so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

When they have people who are previously high carb do something like Zone.. they only have them do it for like 2 weeks which is not even enough time to adapt to the diet. Then they go and say something like "the participants on Zone had decreased performance and lack of energy." Well... no crap they had decreased energy... their bodies we're able to metabolize enough fat to sustain energy output yet. Dumb.

There's a lot of different stuff you're looking for in your OP... gotta be more specific what you're looking for. Performance + low carb..... vs. longevity + low carb.... and BTW, Zone isn't really low carb. I don't really know why stupid studies and people keep referring to it as low carb. Retarded.
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Old 03-26-2009, 07:21 AM   #18
Brian Stone
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
P
.... and BTW, Zone isn't really low carb. I don't really know why stupid studies and people keep referring to it as low carb. Retarded.
I agree 100% here. I guess the carbs are low vs. the typical abysmal American standard, but by no means are they "low" overall at 40% of your macro intake. In fact, they're the largest macro consumed.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:09 AM   #19
Liam Dougherty Springer
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Play around with PubMed some.

There's huge problems in most of the nutritional studies they do though so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

When they have people who are previously high carb do something like Zone.. they only have them do it for like 2 weeks which is not even enough time to adapt to the diet. Then they go and say something like "the participants on Zone had decreased performance and lack of energy." Well... no crap they had decreased energy... their bodies we're able to metabolize enough fat to sustain energy output yet. Dumb.
.

Agreed that is one of the things that got Evan started was that the people he works with sighted a study exactly like the one you have described....

Not about the zone but Steve do you have any studies about High carb feeding pre workout and the effects on fat metabolism durring exertion? or posibly performance?

The study i posted last infers there is no benifit to pre WO feeding as to performance during 30 min. run for highly trained runners. The thing I didn't like is the control group had a sweetened placibo in those not fed befor the exertion... Not ideal to have an insulin response to a no caloric beverage and then exert energy but still it was interesting to see that there was no advantage to the glucose and infact the fructose seemed to be the worst (though only marginaly).
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Old 03-26-2009, 12:25 PM   #20
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Nope, I don't have anything offhand. I haven't been saving nutritional studies unfortunately... most of the stuff I have been saving is related to exercise performance but not combined with nutrition.

In theory, stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system right before you need strong sympathetic activation for a workout/race is not a smart idea. AFAIK from experience and anecdotally, pre-workout anything food besides like BCAAs is not very beneficial... hence most of these "unofficial" results agreeing with the theory. Shrug.

Peri- and post workout nutrition is where all the money is going and rightfully should be because that's where the most "difference" is made. Then again, the difference also depends your goals.... PWO fasting is beneficial for things and PWO CHO/PRO is beneficial for others...
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Last edited by Steven Low : 03-26-2009 at 12:28 PM.
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