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Old 03-31-2009, 06:21 AM   #11
Darryl Shaw
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Originally Posted by Ben Fury View Post
Glycogen is overrated. Get keto-adapted and burn ketones like an Inuit. The Inuit regularly crossed astonishing distances in the Arctic on an almost zero carb diet. The first two weeks of keto-adaptation aren't fun. But after that, you're cruising.

Your body will rip apart proteins for the few absolutely essential tasks it needs glucose for.

See Westman, et al:
Low-carbohydrate nutrition and metabolism
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/86/2/276
Ben,

That review article relates mostly to diabetics and the few paragraphs that deal with athletic performance merely state that submaximal endurance can be maintained on a ketogenic diet. The review failed to provide any evidence that ketogenic diets actually improve performance and clearly acknowledged that anaerobic performance is limited by low muscle glycogen concentrations. It's also worth noting that supplements were required in order to maintain circulatory competence even during submaximal exercise as well as to achieve nitrogen balance.

Quote:
Low-carbohydrate diets and exercise

Over the past several years, 2 reviews focused on LCKD and
exercise have been published. One of these reviews concluded
that submaximal endurance performance can be sustained despite
the virtual exclusion of carbohydrate from the human diet
(46). The other review addressed the intramuscular enzyme adaptation
that occurs with these diets (47).

Several important issues arise in the consideration of LCKD
studies in general and of exercise studies in particular: 1) the time
allowed for keto-adaptation, 2) the use of electrolyte supplementation,
and 3) the amount of protein intake. To try to examine the
first issue, we can consider the multiple studies comparing lowcarbohydrate
with high-carbohydrate diets to test the hypothesis
that “carbohydrate loading” can enhance physical performance.
None of the studies that support this hypothesis maintained the
LCD for 2 wk (48), and most maintained the LCDs for 7 d
(49). No studies have carefully examined the process or duration
of keto-adaptation, but clinical observation suggests that it probably
takes from 2 to 4 wk for keto-adaptation to occur.

The second issue has to do with the maintenance of adequate
mineral supplementation as long as the ketogenic state is maintained.
One group of investigators provided supplements containing
3–5 g sodium/d and 2–3 g potassium/d and found that
circulatory competence during submaximal exercise was sustained.
These supplements also allowed the subjects to achieve
nitrogen balance, which had not been achieved in studies that did
not use supplements (20).

The third issue affecting physical performance is adequate
protein intake. It is generally accepted that the preservation of
LBM and of physical performance during any degree of energy
restriction occurs when protein is in the range of 1.2 to 1.7 g kg
reference body wt1 d1. The use of the mid-range value of 1.5
g kg1 d1 for adults with reference weights ranging from 60
to 80 kg, this translates into total daily protein intakes of 90 to 120
g/d. When adequate protein intake is expressed in the context of
total daily energy expenditures of 2000 to 3000 kcal/d,15% of
daily energy expenditure should be provided as protein.

Further research on exercising under conditions of LCDs is
needed. These studies may be optimized by careful attention to
the time needed for keto-adaptation, to mineral supplementation,
and to the daily protein dose. Therapeutic use of ketogenic diets
should not limit most forms of physical activity, with the caveat
that anaerobic performance (ie, weight lifting or sprinting) may
be limited by lower-muscle glycogen concentrations.
"Fat adaptation" for athletic performance: the nail in the coffin?

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrit...fat_adaptation
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Old 03-31-2009, 07:29 AM   #12
Ben Fury
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Ben,
It's also worth noting that supplements were required in order to maintain circulatory competence even during submaximal exercise as well as to achieve nitrogen balance.
Traditional Inuit had access to zero supplements and managed very well.


Yes, Burke's pro-carbohydrate views and dismissal of keto-adaptation are not news. I know both strength and distance athletes who are competing while in ketosis who claim that they're unimpaired. I'm less concerned with their competitive status than the state of their health. The thing I like is they all have TG/HDL ratios under 2, showing excellent cardiovascular health and low risk of heart disease. Finishing the very long race of life well is the race I'm most interested in.
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:59 PM   #13
Emily Mattes
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I have some experience with what you're talking about.

I lost a little less than 20lbs of fat, while building a little bit of muscle. I do competitive Olympic lifting so it was incredibly important to me to maintain or gain my muscle mass over the course of weight loss.

I have done so through an extremely low-carb diet (<50g on rest days, 50g-100g on workout days), somewhat restricting calories (aiming for 1800-2100kcal/day for an 187lbs female, now 171lbs), and being fanatic about my protein intake--I started out getting 1g/lbs and now aim for 1.4-1.5g/lbs. I actually went through a six-week squat cycle and did excellently. I failed to produce a good max squat at the end, but that was due to a new 70-90 hour/week completely derailing my lifting, sleeping, and eating for the last week or so of it rather than the diet.

My lifts are improving and as far as I can tell I haven't lost any muscle mass. I eat sweet potatoes for post-workout carbs, and otherwise the most high-glycemic thing I eat is maybe berries in cottage cheese in the morning. Otherwise it's all green vegetables.

I could probably be getting stronger faster if I was eating a higher number of calories, but for my weight-loss goals I've been extremely pleased with how it's been working out.
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Old 03-31-2009, 04:03 PM   #14
George Mounce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
I have some experience with what you're talking about.

I lost a little less than 20lbs of fat, while building a little bit of muscle. I do competitive Olympic lifting so it was incredibly important to me to maintain or gain my muscle mass over the course of weight loss.

I have done so through an extremely low-carb diet (<50g on rest days, 50g-100g on workout days), somewhat restricting calories (aiming for 1800-2100kcal/day for an 187lbs female, now 171lbs), and being fanatic about my protein intake--I started out getting 1g/lbs and now aim for 1.4-1.5g/lbs. I actually went through a six-week squat cycle and did excellently. I failed to produce a good max squat at the end, but that was due to a new 70-90 hour/week completely derailing my lifting, sleeping, and eating for the last week or so of it rather than the diet.

My lifts are improving and as far as I can tell I haven't lost any muscle mass. I eat sweet potatoes for post-workout carbs, and otherwise the most high-glycemic thing I eat is maybe berries in cottage cheese in the morning. Otherwise it's all green vegetables.

I could probably be getting stronger faster if I was eating a higher number of calories, but for my weight-loss goals I've been extremely pleased with how it's been working out.
I'm confused are you trying to lose weight or gain it? Muscle as we all know is heavier, so why is weight an issue other than for your competitive weight class? I think you are more worried about body composition, and weight has only to do with your class.
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Old 04-01-2009, 05:49 AM   #15
Darryl Shaw
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Originally Posted by Ben Fury View Post
Traditional Inuit had access to zero supplements and managed very well.
I may be wrong but I doubt that Brandon is an Inuit or that he has access to rancid whale or seal blubber or any other traditional Inuit foods therefore he'd need supplements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Fury
Yes, Burke's pro-carbohydrate views and dismissal of keto-adaptation are not news. I know both strength and distance athletes who are competing while in ketosis who claim that they're unimpaired.
Anecdotal evidence is worse than useless. Where are the studies showing that athletic performance is improved or at the very least not impaired in some way by a ketogenic diet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Fury
I'm less concerned with their competitive status than the state of their health. The thing I like is they all have TG/HDL ratios under 2, showing excellent cardiovascular health and low risk of heart disease. Finishing the very long race of life well is the race I'm most interested in.
I guess you're unaware of the longevity of the Japanese on their traditional high carb diet or the low rates of cardiovascular disease, diabetes and diet related cancers throughout Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, Burma and...... well the whole of South-East Asia really despite their traditional high carb diet?
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Old 04-01-2009, 08:27 AM   #16
Steven Low
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Most asians are also carb adapted pretty well... can't say the same for everyone else. Seems like a crapshoot there.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:49 AM   #17
Emily Mattes
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Originally Posted by George Mounce View Post
I'm confused are you trying to lose weight or gain it? Muscle as we all know is heavier, so why is weight an issue other than for your competitive weight class? I think you are more worried about body composition, and weight has only to do with your class.
I am more worried about body composition right now. I just used weight as shorthand. My approximate body fat has dropped from about 35% to 26% (using a tape measure, so who knows how accurate it is).

I'd like to see if I can get down to the 69kg weight class, but if when there I'm at a level of leanness that is too difficult to maintain without going diet-crazy and sacrificing my workouts, then I will bulk back up to stick around at 75kg.

EDIT: Oh, I think my post was confusing. I have been eating 1800-2000kcal a day, and have dropped from 187 to 171.
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Old 04-01-2009, 09:58 AM   #18
Ben Fury
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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
I may be wrong but I doubt that Brandon is an Inuit or that he has access to rancid whale or seal blubber or any other traditional Inuit foods therefore he'd need supplements.
I have seen no evidence that the Inuit have any special adaptations to low carb eating that are peculiar to them. I've also seen no evidence that rancid whale and seal blubber and other Inuit foods provide essential nutrients that are not available in what is commonly sold at the grocery store.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Anecdotal evidence is worse than useless. Where are the studies showing that athletic performance is improved or at the very least not impaired in some way by a ketogenic diet?
No, anecdotal evidence is what we refer to as a case study. It is useful in suggesting further research. NIH is decidedly not very low carb friendly, so the studies that need doing have not been done and are unlikely to be funded soon.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
I guess you're unaware of the longevity of the Japanese on their traditional high carb diet or the low rates of cardiovascular disease, diabetes and diet related cancers throughout Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, Burma and...... well the whole of South-East Asia really despite their traditional high carb diet?
These areas traditionally consumed considerably less total calories than Americans. Globalizing their results to give Americans a green light to consume excess carbohydrates has resulted in our current epidemic of obesity and Type II diabetes.
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Bettercise
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Old 04-01-2009, 10:15 AM   #19
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I'd like to see if I can get down to the 69kg weight class, but if when there I'm at a level of leanness that is too difficult to maintain without going diet-crazy and sacrificing my workouts, then I will bulk back up to stick around at 75kg.
Yes, exactly. Shave body fat by reasonable amounts and then see if that's a strong, healthy weight for you. I would expect performance to stay high down into the high teens and start to drop off in the mid teens.

But you find a comfortable BF% for you. Don't let society, fashion or Coach Ben tell you any different from what you feel is your best body composition! A lady friend used to torture herself to be an unhealthy size 2. Now she's a healthy size 5 and has better energy and gets lots of complements. Fighting her natural pear shape just ended up not being worth the struggle. Now she's a fit, healthy pear with a very healthy glow!
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Bettercise
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:11 PM   #20
Derek Weaver
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....

These areas traditionally consumed considerably less total calories than Americans. Globalizing their results to give Americans a green light to consume excess carbohydrates has resulted in our current epidemic of obesity and Type II diabetes.
Isn't this the real point? Excess calories are excess calories. Eat enough protein to spare protein breakdown, eat enough fat to normalize blood glucose and keep hormones in check, eat enough carbs to maintain your lifestyle and/or sport.

This article explains it nicely. http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

Of all the dietary authorities on the internet I think Lyle makes the most sense in terms of macros only. In terms of sources of food, it's easily Robb Wolf. Combine the two approaches (though viewpoints on what causes what vary significantly. I,e. insulin etc.) and you've got a healthy, lean, successful athlete.
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