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Old 05-20-2009, 05:27 PM   #181
Allen Yeh
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Mr. Wolf says STFU about CF Football!

http://robbwolf.com/?p=554

heh!
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:01 PM   #182
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Mr. Wolf says STFU about CF Football!

http://robbwolf.com/?p=554

heh!
Not sure what an omelet has to do with CF Football.
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Old 05-20-2009, 07:05 PM   #183
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Yes, this is how I think of it. Everything for sports is always founded on some type of GPP. If you don't have an good base to build on you wont go far. Even powerlifters need GPP, otherwise they wont be able to get through an intense workout or be able to recover quickly enough for the next. The extent a powerlifting needs GPP, and the type of GPP, varies great from Football. Either way, the GPP is not the focus of the training, but the sports performance is, which also needs tons of specific strength, speed, endurance, technique and skill work, but GPP is the foundation.
World class athletes don't need GPP. Go read the Usain Bolt thread. They only need to get better at what they are doing. Hate to tell you but CF and GPP doesn't work for quite a few people to get better at their sport.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:16 PM   #184
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World class athletes don't need GPP. Go read the Usain Bolt thread. They only need to get better at what they are doing. Hate to tell you but CF and GPP doesn't work for quite a few people to get better at their sport.
I think they are referring to GPP in the sense of being able to recover from workouts.

But then again, that is almost built into the GOOD program(s) anyway.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:17 PM   #185
Gavin Harrison
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World class athletes don't need GPP. Go read the Usain Bolt thread. They only need to get better at what they are doing. Hate to tell you but CF and GPP doesn't work for quite a few people to get better at their sport.
I think you're misinterpreting what I said. I do not define GPP as crossfit or anything remotely close to it. I also said, the GPP necessary for all sports is different. I have no idea about running, but I doubt Bolt does nothing but run 100m and 200m singles at 100% intensity as his only training, and I very much doubt that his genes are so elite that he can dominate so much without doing any training at all.

Good GPP for most sports is probably just enough, maybe a little more, than what you need to be able to get through the tough workouts that make you better at what you do, while still being able to recover for the next, and enough to provide some injury prevention. Specific conditioning or strength for the event I won't consider as GPP. It doesn't directly enhance your ability to perform in your sport, but it does increase your ability to train specifically for your sport.

Also, as a side note, CFFB would be an insanely better approach to S&C compared to what a lot of high school and at least one college football programs currently use..
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:49 PM   #186
Justin Lascek
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I feel like you guys are sometimes using the term GPP when met-con would be more appropriate. In either case, the terms should be defined.

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Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison View Post

Also, as a side note, CFFB would be an insanely better approach to S&C compared to what a lot of high school and at least one college football programs currently use..
Correction: CFFB is a better program currently. There are a set amount of tools to be utilized that will be more productive in enhancing performance. Take a saw for example. A saw can perform a job much easier, faster, and more efficient than other tools. However, that saw has the potential to cause some serious damaged if used inappropriately (think cuts, gashes, severed limbs, and seemingly accidental massacres). You need someone to teach you how to use the tool if you are going to use it well.

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
I think they are referring to GPP in the sense of being able to recover from workouts.

But then again, that is almost built into the GOOD program(s) anyway.
Hey Steven -- hope you've been doing well. I have some reason to believe that an increased GPP will help recovery from the primary training. I agree that "GOOD", or well thought out, training programs will have recovery properly added in. What we don't know (but maybe could conjecture about) is whether or not an added GPP will enhance said recovery, adaptation, and thus supercompensation. I am of the opinion that increasing metabolic conditioning does this (which, as I mentioned earlier, is not equated with GPP).


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Will main page CFFB change depending on the season, or is this up to the S&C coaches to program for this?
It will, Gant. Or rather, it should. However...

Thing 1: Let's look at CrossFit.com's early programming. It may be effective for some, but not for others. Total performance/work capacity/fitness (I equate these terms) may have benefited from an enhancement in programming, methodology, etc.

Thing 2: Irregardless of program quality, we are all individuals. As such, a program should be made to fit the individual and their needs.

Thing 3: With that being said, there are still some qualities of human performance that cannot be neglected, regardless of goal (but this getting off topic, so I'll leave it at that).

Thing 4: Thinking along these lines means that CFFB main page may or may not be applicable to all football teams using it (think novice, intermediate, and advanced level athletes). What a 2A high school in Louisiana may require is going to be different than a D-II college team.

Overall Thing: The coach implementing a CF Football program will still have to do that: program. He (she?) will have to program according to their athletes. We can brainstorm the variables that come into play in or out of season:

Nutrition, rest, weekly practice schedule, frequency of training sessions (strength and/or met-con), training advancement among individuals (moving from novice to intermediate programming), game day, morale, etc.

Coaching and programming are an art. This will not come easily to people, and the efficacy of this program is dependent on programming.

We'll find out if individual coaches use the saw to make a clean cut, or slice their femoral artery open.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:03 PM   #187
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Overall Thing: The coach implementing a CF Football program will still have to do that: program. He (she?) will have to program according to their athletes.

I know several GOOD high school and collegiate football strength coaches. Very appropriate workouts. Do a great job.

The bad ones, currently, often at least, copy the training from a high profile program. Often its not appropriate, or well coached.

Off-season and in-season football training will always have to do a few things, like speed work, agility work, skill specific work (running routes, blocking, tackling, etc), anaerobic conditioning, and strength work. And they will have to mix and match these things in appropriate amounts throughout the year. Good ones do a good job programming and coaching, bad ones dont.

So, and this is an honest question, and not sarcastic, if in your words, any coach is going to have to, "program according to their athletes"... and mix and match these differing parts of football conditioning according to their own standards... then what is CF Football?

Again, considering the circumstances, I understand if your first instinct is to take this as argumentative or something, but I assure you, I am honestly interested in your answer of how CF football is going to improve football training... given your own analysis of the programming situation as quoted from your post.

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Old 05-21-2009, 02:12 PM   #188
Justin Lascek
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I know several GOOD high school and collegiate football strength coaches. Very appropriate workouts. Do a great job.
Very good point, Glenn. I would agree. I some times don't do a great deal of thinking on the positive end of the spectrum regarding strength coaches.

I'm sure most agree here, but CrossFit affiliates do a horrendous job of including strength in their training regime. Furthermore, if they do, they program their met-cons around it in a way that doesn't leave much room for strength recovery (the most important characteristic of performance) because of a lack of understanding of the stress-recovery-adaptation process.

With that being said, I (sometimes) shudder to think of what people who lack this understanding, or just lack good sense and logic, will do to their athletes.

...

Now to your question. Don't worry, I'm not taking offense or assuming sarcasm. I am sane.

You ask "What is CF Football?" because I say it will be individualized, right? What I meant in the previous post was similar to what you just said in yours; some strength coaches will try and implement a program that their athletes are incapable of making the most efficient progress on. Kind of like your reference to copying a high profile program.

And as an aside, we don't have to consider the circumstances, because that would just get in the way of validating (or not validating) any kind of good CF Football can have.

I define metabolic conditioning as an activity that is using normal patterns of human movement (including those unrelated to a specific sport) to maintain a high work output for as long as possible as well as minimizing the time in between bouts of said high output. Until I improve the definition, the output is relative.

Now I guess I have to sorta validate the reasoning for including metabolic conditioning. Think of a team sport. Ask an athlete from said team sport what it is that limits their ability to physically perform late in a game. The answer is broad, so I have to assume it is something like, "My shot on goal didn't go in"/"I missed the three point shot"/"I didn't catch the football"/"I didn't make the tackle". I'm not taking into account mental mistakes, but that possibly could be relevant.

So for whatever reason, the athlete doesn't perform a given skill that requires some kind of technical proficiency. A 'strength and conditioning' coaches job isn't to improve that proficiency. It is to get them strengthened and conditioned enough where strength and/or conditioning won't be the limiting factor in that performance, especially late in the game.

You can probably see where I'm going with this. The foundation of everything is strength and strength training (this includes Olympic lifting). Yet strength, and the other physical skills that you mentioned (that must also be improved), can be augmented by additional metabolic conditioning. My line of thinking is if you prepare the athlete in a way that makes them experience much higher levels of output than they would ever experience in a game, trying to sustain those high levels of output, and then try to minimize the recover time in between those outputs, then it will improve the conditioning for the athlete to perform whatever skill of proficiency they need to, especially late in a game when conditioning becomes inherently necessary.

I've seen hematocrit and hemoglobin levels increase very significantly in just four weeks in someone who improves their metabolic conditioning (with strength training, of course). Currently I can't be convinced that those adaptations, as well as others, will not assist in an improvement of conditioning and thus performance.

So the theme I was trying to present in the first post was that if all of these different adaptations are going to occur in the most efficient way possible, then programming to do so is a bit more complicated than what conventional wisdom holds.

Not to mention the strength and conditioning field in general is a bit lacking.
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:36 PM   #189
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Justin,

Almost everyone still awake on this thread understands how and why conditioning work is important and how it relates to athletic performance in a game like football.

Glenn's seemed to me to get at, what about CF football template is inherently better than a non retarded football coach programming the training specific to his athletes.

This would seem to require at least a passing knowledge and description of the pitfalls that even good coaches fall into with their athletes and why CF football will improve upon that. What, for instance is better about CF football than what Joe De Franco is doing in terms of tailoring programming for his individual athletes?
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:51 PM   #190
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Justin,

I think I can boil down your response to "we need metabilic conditioning (or more metabolic conditioning, or more varied metabolic conditioning) so that we can more effectively utilize our strength/speed/skill in a game environment, particularly late in the game"

Is this accurate? If so, I would guess that there is an inherent assumption on your part (and not saying your wrong) that the average football team doesnt have adequate metabolic conditioning, and that CF will fix this, and maybe even that this is how CF Football is going to be better than current FB training methodology, or improve current FB training methodology.

And, I did slightly misrepresent my thoughts when I asked "then what is CF Football". What I was thinking was more in line with "How is CFFB better than current FB training", or "How is CFFB going to improve current FB training?"

Hopefully I am accurate in the meaning I took from your post, and in my assumptions of your underlying positions. If so, this could definately be a useful discussion.
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