Moderate Amounts Of Protein Per Meal Found Best For Building Muscle.

[Mike ODonnell]

Originally Posted by Allen Yeh

John Beradi on the 30g protein limit:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/protein-limit

60g of protein every 3 hours??.....I'll pass on that OCD lifestyle....been there, hated it.

[Robert Johnson]

There was an article about this on t-nation. The diet guru basically agreed but said, what else are you going to eat if you only eat 30g of protein a meal, so you may as well eat 60.

If only there were other macronutrients...

[Mike ODonnell]

Originally Posted by Derek Weaver

Think the casein vs. whey debate.

Here's one study on that:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2342962/

Lyle did a whole series on protein digestion worth reading too:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...stion-pt1.html


BCAA supplementation during the day is worth noting as a potential way to increase AA levels and protein synthesis.....many people doing IF along with BCAAs are having success....of course we are probably not talking about creating 250lb bodybuilders with IF.

I agree that people who have higher than normal needs for protein synthesis/calorie load (people who train a ton like athletes) may do better on more frequent feedings (and BCAA supplementation).....ala Zone style. The rest that just train a few times a week at the gym, can go a different route and have a life outside of eating as the total protein/calorie requirements are lower anyways.

[Mike ODonnell]

Also interesting to note that "protein pulsing" is also seen to be more effective than just eating all day long (and intakes are pretty high below).

Protein pulse feeding improves protein retention in elderly women1,2,3
Marie-Agnès Arnal, Laurent Mosoni, Yves Boirie, Marie-Louise Houlier, Liliane Morin, Elisabeth Verdier, Patrick Ritz, Jean-Michel Antoine, Jacques Prugnaud, Bernard Beaufrère and Philippe Patureau Mirand

Background: Adequate protein nutrition could be used to limit gradual body protein loss and improve protein anabolism in the elderly.

Objective: We tested the hypothesis that an uneven protein feeding pattern was more efficient in improving protein anabolism than was an even pattern.

Design: After a controlled period, 15 elderly women (mean age: 68 y) were fed for 14 d either a pulse diet (n = 7), providing 80% of the daily protein intake at 1200, or a spread diet (n = 8), in which the same daily protein intake was spread over 4 meals. Both diets provided 1.7 g protein•kg fat-free mass (FFM)-1•d-1. Protein accretion and daily protein turnover were determined by using the nitrogen balance method and the end product method (ammonia and urea) after an oral dose of [15N]glycine.

Results: Nitrogen balance was more positive with the pulse than with the spread diet (54 ± 7 compared with 27 ± 6 mg N•kg FFM-1•d-1; P < 0.05). Protein turnover rates were also higher with the pulse than with the spread diet (5.58 ± 0.22 compared with 4.98 ± 0.17 g protein•kg FFM-1•d-1; P < 0.05), mainly because of higher protein synthesis in the pulse group (4.48 ± 0.19 g protein•kg FFM-1•d-1) than in the spread group (3.75 ± 0.19 g protein•kg FFM-1•d-1) (P < 0.05).

Conclusion: A protein pulse-feeding pattern was more efficient than was a protein spread-feeding pattern in improving, after 14 d, whole-body protein retention in elderly women.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abst...e2=tf_ipsecsha

and actually T-nation has an article about that as well (including reference to the study above):
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_a...se_eating_plan

Hence why many have success with some larger protein meals and IF....as there is much more going on with the body as a whole....rather than always micro-focusing on meal to meal response, whole body up-regulation and increased utilization is important.

[Darryl Shaw]

Originally Posted by Allen Yeh

John Beradi on the 30g protein limit:

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/protein-limit

I don't normally read Berardi's stuff and that article reminds me why.......

Originally Posted by John Berardi

Take-Home Message.

It seems to me that whether someone’s on a hypoenergetic diet (low calorie) or a hyperenergetic diet (high calorie), the one macronutrient they would want to be sure to “overeat” (relatively speaking) would be protein.

But that’s not what people do, is it?

Ummmm.....yes, that's exactly what people do, particularly those engaged in strength training.

Originally Posted by John Berardi

Instead, their protein prejudice often leads them to look for what they consider the bare minimum of protein (whether it’s 20-30g/meal or 0.8g/kg/day), and then overeat carbohydrates and fats instead. That could prove to be a performance – and body composition – mistake.

Those studies didn't say that athletes should restrict their total protein intake or stick to the RDA and there's no evidence that specific macronutrients have any influence on body composition or weight gain/loss independant of energy balance and exercise.

Originally Posted by John Berardi

To this end, my advice is the same as I’ve outlined in the Precision Nutrition System.

Women – 1 serving of lean, complete protein (20-30g) with each meal, every 3 hours or so

Men – 2 servings of lean, complete protein (40-60g) with each meal, every 3 hours or so

This pattern of intake will make sure you’re getting enough protein to reap all the benefits that this macronutrient has to offer. Not just the protein synthetic benefits.

I'm male so according to Berardi's "expert" advice in the 18 hours I'm awake most days I should be eating 6 meals each providing 40-60g of protein giving me a total protein intake of 240-360g per day. That works out at 4.2-6.3g/kg/d for me which seems a little excessive considering the worlds leading authorities in the field of sports nutrition agree that an athletes protein requirments are 1.2-1.8g/kg of LBM/d but then what do I know, I'm not an "expert" like Dr Berardi.

Seriously, how does he get away with this crap and more importantly why are people prepared to pay for it? [/rant]

<sigh> <takes deep breath>

This stuff isn't particularly complicated because all an athlete needs to do is calculate their protein requirements and divide that figure between however many meals per day seems practical. That way, assuming that their calorie intake is adequate, they'll be getting all the protein they need.

[Blair Lowe]

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

1.2g of protein/kg of BW seems to be the absolute low end, preferably 1.5g/kg of BW it seems.

[Mike ODonnell]

Originally Posted by Blair Lowe

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

1.2g of protein/kg of BW seems to be the absolute low end, preferably 1.5g/kg of BW it seems.

that falls in line with the general NSCA recommendations (0.4-0.6g per lb/bw)....athletes is 0.8g/lb bw (or 1.8 kg/bw)

Anything more is just people overeating on protein because they want a lower carb diet for the most part....which can work of course. But is it necessary? No.

[Donald Lee]

Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw

I don't normally read Berardi's stuff and that article reminds me why.......




Seriously, how does he get away with this crap and more importantly why are people prepared to pay for it? [/rant]

<sigh> <takes deep breath>

I hear ya Darryl. My B.S. radar has gotten stronger the past year or so.

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reaons." - Michael Shermer

[Gant Grimes]

At my activity level, I can't maintain muscle mass on less than 0.7-0.8/g per lb. I can't grow on anything less than 1.0/g per lb. I wish it were otherwise, but I don't seem to have much in common with the subjects in these selected studies.

[Darryl Shaw]

Originally Posted by Gant Grimes

At my activity level, I can't maintain muscle mass on less than 0.7-0.8/g per lb. I can't grow on anything less than 1.0/g per lb. I wish it were otherwise, but I don't seem to have much in common with the subjects in these selected studies.

A negative energy balance will result in a negative nitrogen balance regardless of how much protein you're eating so if you're having a hard time maintaining or increasing your lean body mass you probably just aren't eating enough.