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Old 12-05-2009, 09:28 AM   #11
Grissim Connery
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after writing the last post, i thought about it and realized that i generally only use strength in 2 instances. the first is to keep stable body positions, and most of the time this just feels more like balancing to me than strength. the second way, and the only time i use strength to get stuff done in grappling, is grip/forearm strength. i find that as long as you just use snappy motions with your hands (like revving a motorcycle), they never burn out. if your forearms are constantly getting tired and you feel that they should be well trained in that area, then you're probably gripping too tightly at times when you shoulnd't be gripping that hard.

the one reason i like sonnon's stuff is that he seems to have the right mindset in that we're not always gonna be in our 20's. i'm 23, so i could maybe use athleticism do accomplish goals, but i'd rather be able to do this my whole life. some people were talking about hardstyle vs soft/fluid style KB training in another thread. the point i agree with in that discussion is that it's pretty easy to teach people how to get really tight and generate a lot of force. it seems to be much harder to teach people how to flow in and out of tightness and looseness. it's kinda like when somebody new comes to grapple, and they think they're tough, so you have to beat them down a for a few weeks until they realize they dont' know anything. then they'll learn to relax and learn how to do stuff.
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:45 AM   #12
Donald Lee
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Grissim,

Joel over at 8weeksout likes to use the VersaClimber. He uses it for a very specific purpose--what he calls High Intensity Continuous Training (HICT). He has an article on it. A jump rope cannot be used for that purpose. There are very few exercises or machines that can be used in place of the VersaClimber. The VersaClimber is the only machine that would train the upper and lower body. As far as using a C2 Rower goes, Joel talks about it here: http://www.8weeksout.com/phpBB3/view...=c2+rower#p822
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:01 PM   #13
Brian Lawyer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
The only problem with Diesel Crew is that you might fall into the variety for the sake of variety trap...
So just like crossfit...haha.

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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
Joel is trying to bring back the emphasis from lactic training (i.e., metcons) to a more meaningful approach. The MMA world seems to have ditched the road work, when it is so important in MMA. Contrary to popular opinion, MMA is mostly alactic and aerobic without much being lactic. Plus, the lactic energy system cannot be improved much, and lactic adaptations interfere with aerobic adaptations.
You will have to put that in layman terms for me.
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Old 12-05-2009, 11:25 PM   #14
Donald Lee
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So just like crossfit...haha.


You will have to put that in layman terms for me.
Basically, the MMA world has caught the CrossFit-esque training bug. They've ditched road work, thinking that metcons mimic the needs of fighters. The problem is that metcons are not optimal for anything. They're not optimal for developing maximal strength, speed/power, strength endurance, the aerobic energy system, the glycolytic energy system, or the phosphagen energy system. While beginners can and should effectively train multiple qualities at once, advanced athletes need to train each quality separately in order to make improvements. Also, many of the adapations required of a fighter interfere with one another, especially aerobic and glycolytic adaptations. The emphasis that RossTraining/CrossFit/HIIT put on intensity are counterproductive to many aerobic adaptations. While MMA is mostly phosphagen and aerobic energy system intensive, nowadays training the anaerobic energy system through interval training is all the craze. Intervals can be used effectively to train fighters, but not in the manner that is usually prescribed (i.e., Tabatas).

If you'd like to learn some more, Joel has a sticky thread over at Sherdog. In the first few pages, he has to defend himself because everybody's a Ross Enamait lover over there, but eventually, he's able to get through to them and gives a lot of advice:

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f14/ho...roblem-788235/

BTW. Joel has never, ever specifically called out Ross Enamait, while he has called out CrossFit explicitly. I believe he has chosen not to call out Ross because Ross is such a great guy, despite conflicting beliefs in training.
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:48 AM   #15
Derek Simonds
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The only problem with Diesel Crew is that you might fall into the variety for the sake of variety trap. They have a ton of exercise variations in their products, but their stuff is usually solid.
The key word there is products. They definitely sell stuff. Taken with that in mind I have purchased several of their products and each one is laid out so that it is a complete system. I use their combat core product integrated with 5/3/1 and most all of my grip training has come from one of their products or articles.

I also agree with Grissim that simplicity is probably paramount for most people.

Grissim made some interesting points when he was talking about staying alactate and how whenever he feels like he has crossed that threshhold he is about to get ripped. I am either in significantly worse shape (of course I am 39) or Grissim has reached a level that I am not at because when I am grappling with higher belts or very athletic guys I am into that met-con type feeling. This past Wednesday I trained for right at 3 hours and the last 45 minutes was non stop grappling. Two out of the last 3 matches left me feeling very wrung out. My only point here is that technique wins every time with the right amount of strength but you need the gas in the tank to get there.

I also focus on the exact same thing for grip. I used to race motorcross and we called it forearm pump. It was a clue that your technique sucked and you were just hanging on. I think it is exactly the same in BJJ when my forearms start burning I look for where I am messing up. One of the major things I have started doing is from any top control I am now cupping the shoulder or tricep instead of grabbing the gi. That has made a big difference and just as Grissim said when I need to I grab and go.

I have used the versa climber before and found it to kick my arse. There was one on Craigslist a couple of months ago for cheap but I just couldn't justify it. I am going to spend some time reading Joel's stuff. Sounds very interesting.

I am pretty sure that while Ross does a ton of interval training he is into roadwork to prep someone for their fights. Again I think there is a difference between a product being sold for mass consumption and what might be done with a specific individual. I know that I have read several fight prep updates from training camps with Ross where they are running long distances.

Most of us coach ourselves on here and have had successes and failures finding what is right for our on situation. These products that are being sold are being sold to make money for the people selling them. Nothing wrong with that at all. In fact if I wasn't so lazy I would have already brought my hotelworkout.com product to the market but alas that is another story. Pick a product / style / workout map it out over 6 months or whatever time is available and stick with it. That is the key. Nothing will work if you are changing plans every couple of months. I plan on competing in the International Worlds in Brazil in July. Knowing that date I am working backwards with my strength and conditioning plan.

This is a rambling post so I am going to stop typing now.
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Old 12-06-2009, 06:01 AM   #16
Derek Simonds
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Out of time for the morning but just read the first 3 pages on Sherdog. I understand conceptually what Joel is talking about and will read on later. Thanks for the link.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:21 AM   #17
Donald Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Simonds View Post
Out of time for the morning but just read the first 3 pages on Sherdog. I understand conceptually what Joel is talking about and will read on later. Thanks for the link.
If you'd like me to clarify some of the stuff he's saying, let me know. I'm pretty familiar with the material he's put out there.
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:06 PM   #18
Brian Lawyer
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Donald/Derek/Grissim,
Since this is my thread and I got the attention of you guys and I believe you all are very knowledgeable, I need a workout for Monday. At the bottom of this thread is what I did Saturday and Sunday. Tuesday I plan to rest and Wednesday I plan train MMA. So I need a strength and conditioning piece for Monday. Something simple that will give me most bang for my buck.

My end goal is an MMA match in January that is 3 x 3min rounds. It's not a serious fight, just a "Smoker" session which is a more formal sparring session and more importantly Free. It's like the two youtube videos I have on my training log.

Saturday = rest day

Sunday:
Power Cleans
5x185
5X185
5x205

Squats (High bar ATG)
5x 225
5x245
3x275
3x295

My own version of a 3 x 3min fight gone bad that included some of the following:
burpees, push press, SDHP's, Slam Ball, box jumps, Hang squat cleans.
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Old 12-06-2009, 08:50 PM   #19
Brian Lawyer
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Some other background for you all. My main goal is to get some serious gas in the tank. I don't need any more strength because I don't have enough gas to use any of what I already have. The last 3x3min smoker session I did I spent the majority of the first two rounds resting in a good top position so I didn't gas myself out. I was scared if I pushed the pace too much I would run out of steam.

Also if you were wondering, I would be doing 3-4 days a week MMA technique except I can't afford to join an MMA gym. So I get freebies from my old MMA coach plus 2-3 quality sparring partners. I can count on them for usually one to two workouts per week.
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Old 12-07-2009, 02:01 PM   #20
Donald Lee
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Test your Resting Heart Rate in the morning soon after you wake up, while lying down, and let me know what it is.
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