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Old 10-24-2006, 12:28 AM   #11
Yael Grauer
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Hmmm, I thought Andrew Weil was a naturopath. He lives in my town and I see supplements with his photo on them everywhere I go. Anyways...

I agree that something feeling better doesn't necessarily make it better, and of course this is true in TCM as well--needles certainly don't feel very good, and TCM is opposed to certain arthritis meds that they say cause "dampness" and exacerbate the problem while treating the symptoms. I suppose whether or not you use the TCM model depends on whether or not you believe in "dampness," or "blood stasis" or chi even... or the idea that people could present the same symptoms and have totally different "conditions" (or patterns of disharmony to use TCM terminology). I've had pretty amazing experiences with TCM for serious issues that I can't explain scientifically, so I'm a believer, but I drew the line when they tried to get me to take a "patent formula" with stir-fried squirrel poop.

Robb, I'm assuming you don't want your clients to punch you and you obviously have good science-based reasons for doing cryo... are there any reasons for doing it other than quicker recovery? Do you think it'd be harmful NOT to use it-- do you think NOT using ice will potentially cause problems later on?

As far as heat for back pain, wouldn't you know if you were causing chronic inflammation, or is this one of those things like yoga or static stretching before workouts that feels really good but will mess you up without you realizing the cause? The two studies I linked to seemed to indicate that heat could be useful, but again they are short-term and like the ice research don't have follow-ups.

My own personal experience this time around is that ice seemed to make things worse (but I'm sure me trying to twirl sticks and do db swings didn't help matters any) and heat with dit da (by heat I mean 1-3 applications with hot towels--they cool down pretty fast) has helped a *lot* (but this may be due to the acupuncture and added rest days as well--too many frickin' variables).

I realize that I've contradicted myself about a zillion times already in this thread alone so I will stop trying to argue my pro-heat case. Just curious whether you think not using ice could cause long-term issues (scar tissue laid down in a non-beneficial way or whatnot) and whether damage (inflammation) caused by heat would be noticeable in the short-term. Thanks!!
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Old 10-24-2006, 03:01 PM   #12
Robb Wolf
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Andrew Weil is an MD...harvard trained I think. I sold him a bar of soap when I worked at Wholefoods in Seattle. he got Pissed when I asked him why he is fat and does nto recomend a diet based on evolutionary biology...go figure.

Whenever one has inflammation for an extended period of time the amount of scar tissue increases and the quality with regards to fiber direction and strength/integrity decrease, so yes, no ice=worse recovery IMO.
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Old 10-25-2006, 10:53 AM   #13
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Oh yeah? Well, the cavemen never used ice! Just kidding. Thanks for the info. What else can you do to get scar tissue to be laid down beneficially other than ice? ROM/stretching...anything else?

And that's hilarious about Andrew Weil. I should tell you about the dentist he recommends sometime.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:03 PM   #14
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I haven't read up on dit dat jow before but I did use to use it liberally when I was younger, ages 13-18 when I used to take Kung fu. I probably used it 1-3 times a week depending on how hard we went and what we were doing that week. It was mostly used after a body conditioning session and usually applied to the forearms, shins sometimes upper leg and upper arms. It was great stuff at the time when I took everything my Sifu said as gospel.
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Old 10-25-2006, 02:54 PM   #15
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Cross-fiber friction (massage, deep tissue) with light loading breaks up scar tissue and then the loading stimulates collagen to be laid down in the direction of the force acting on it=stronger connective tissue.

For example chronic bicep tendonitis from ring work. Crossfiber friction/deep tissue work. 4-5 sets of 15-30 bosy rows, followed by ice massage to numbness. No frostbite!
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Old 10-26-2006, 03:51 PM   #16
Jeremy Jones
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My wife got frostbyte on her back from icing too much.

Be careful with ice.
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:05 AM   #17
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"Dr. Weil, you are going to love the colloids in this Oatmeal & Honey soap--you skin will be fantastically smooth. Speaking of skin, why are you such a fat*%^ , again? How about recommending a diet that has some sort of validity there, Chubbsy?"

That is classic, Robb.
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Old 10-27-2006, 02:43 PM   #18
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Ken-
That is scary close to the facts!
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Old 11-08-2006, 11:37 AM   #19
Yael Grauer
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From the "Robb was right again" files, I went to see to this chiropractor because my elbow was clicking all of a sudden, and he told me I had (que surprise) quite a bit of inflammation and tissue damage in my brachial radialus and bicep muscle. He recommended a stretch he showed me and (drumroll, please) 20+ minutes of ice daily for at least a week. Damn doctors!
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:40 PM
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Old 03-20-2007, 05:41 PM   #20
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I use dit da jow on bumps and bruises fairly regualrly and I always have good results in terms of quicker healing but I ice as well.

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