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Old 04-02-2010, 07:25 PM   #21
Donald Lee
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From my understanding, this is Martin Berkham's reasoning for fasted training + pre-workout BCAA intake.

1. Fasted training upregulates myogenic transcription factors, with the greatest effect being on p70s6 kinase, versus fed training. This means that amino acids ingested post-workout will be shuttled into the muscles faster. This may have to do with high carb intake pre-workout or high insulin levels interfering with gene expression necessary for anabolic adaptations.

2. Fasting is catabolic. At about the 16 hour of fasting mark, through gluconeogenesis your body is oxidizing 50% fat and 50% protein. As a compensatory mechanism though, protein synthesis is upregulated per #1.

3. "Pre-workout protein blunts cortisol throughout the day, which is another effect not seen fasted or with carbs only. In this context, lower cortisol could boost metabolic activity of muscle protein synthesis by allowing it to go on unscathed (cortisol increase protein breakdown and decrease synthesis)."

4. "Older studies show that consuming pre-workout protein increase protein synthesis far more effectively than pre-workout carbs. This effect is due to shuttling amino acids to the working muscles, which in turn may increases protein synthesis for up to 48 hours. It goes without saying that if no dietary amino acids are present at this time, the effect would be blunted, which is what occurs if one would work out completely fasted or with carbs only."

5. "I argued that the need for pre-workout protein intake was due to this being a case where the benefits (increased protein synthesis) simply outweighted the negatives (insulin increase; low insulin being a determinant of the fasting state). It's also known that BCAAs independently affects the same myogenic pathway through which fasted training may increase protein synthesis in response to post-workout nutrition." ***This is the double whammy p70s6 kinase he talks about in one of the links I posted.***

"With BCAA you get the aminos needed for protein synthesis without the insulin and caloric load brought on by whey protein. Low insulin = the fasted state. You pretty much answered your own question in that you would have to consume 40 g of whey to get the same amount of BCAA I recommend (a recommendation based on a study where 10 g elicited the maximal effect). Then again, one could question what the real world implications would be in comparing whey and BCAA in this context. I hardly doubt this is a deal breaker in any way. Then again, if you wan't to optimize everything, BCAA is the way to go."

6. "The higher REE observed in the protein-supplemented experiment can be explained by increased muscle protein synthesis, which is a metabolically costly process." ***REE = Resting Energy Expenditure***
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:31 PM   #22
Garrett Smith
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Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
I'm doing my drive-by points on IF...as many were already covered:

- IF is just a tool and not a diet, make it work to your lifestyle ...and it doesn't need to be everyday
- Make sure you are getting in enough protein everyday
- Many do IF on non-workout days and eat bigger meals of mostly protein (and less calories than workout days)
- You will of course need to gauge performance and body composition and whether you need to adjust IF days, calorie intake, etc.
- You can take weekends off too and just eat more flexible
- You can also do Warrior diet style on workout days and eat light all day and a bigger meal at night

As for fasted workouts and cortisol, try the brand "Chained Out" BCAAs pre and during the day...as it is supposed to have a cortisol blocking agent (of course I can't verify this...but talking to someone who works for them and knows his sh*t, people are seeing results using it...and doing no other changes to their diet/workouts).
http://www.evitamins.com/product.asp?pid=15691

On a side note...unless you are a bodybuilder, I think many worry too much about cortisol...as it is a natural process and has a half life of like 2 hours (unless you are one stressed out person). Much like autophagy, where you recycle proteins (especially damaged ones) is a factor in longevity/health. There are also theories of protein pulsing and how the body can upregulate protein synthesis when needed to over 24 hours if you have the protein to use. So in a sense....making sure you get enough protein in every day is still your top priority. Then dump some BCAAs in a big water jug and carry it around all day to sip on it. Adjust all other macronutrients/calories around it to meet you performance/body comp goals. It's really not all that hard, just need to keep it simple and know when things need to be changed up.
Just a couple of things. Cortisol is a natural process. The way us "modern" humans have figured out ways to keep it high nearly all day long is the problem, and many lifestyles and workout choices only contribute to the problem.

Two. I was interested in that Chain'd Out until I found out it had not one, but TWO different artificial sweeteners in it. I'll let other people have the headaches, I'll pass.

Lastly, in regards to the OP post. I did just fine with NO PWO (in particular, sometimes not eating for hours afterward) until I decided I wanted to gain weight. Now I need to change my approach. I was doing fine strength-wise with no particular PWO nutrition...but now I want to gain some muscular BW, and I don't think that approach will work with my particular brand of IF at this time, so I'm eating more often.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:02 AM   #23
Greg Davis
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I don't think that approach will work with my particular brand of IF at this time, so I'm eating more often.
Doc, as always, interested to hear any thoughts you have on what is/has worked for you in your quest to move up in BW.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:20 PM   #24
Andy Foster
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Howdy, hope its ok to ask a related question here (didn't want to create a new thread)

I feed from 12noon-8pm, but often engage in physical activity after that. This is typically jogging or squash, usually between 9pm-11pm.

I don't pretend to really understand IF theory so I'm a little uncomfortable about going into a fast straight after exercise (in the case of squash, fairly intensive). My question is, is this post-feed exercise detrimental behaviour, and if so do I have any options to mitigate it?

I experimented with trying to move my feed phase to 4-12 or thereabouts, but was not able to maintain it as I'd get very hungry at work, and do normally enjoy grabbing lunch with colleagues (yeah, lifestyle sacrifices and all that)
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:21 PM   #25
Arien Malec
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My guess is that, if you eat from 12-8, you've got a ton of digestion feeding protein and such into your bloodstream during your exercise.
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