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Old 07-15-2011, 08:38 AM   #11
Ben Byram
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My thoughts... Firstly I'd suggest a minimum of 3 endurance sessions a week improve, I guess 4/5 would be better. I'd do weights twice per week kept simply squat/push/pull. Squat, bench, dead one session - power clean, press, squat on the other. I would need to do twice per week as a natural rake build, whenever I've tried once per week what little strength I have falls off a cliff especially on squats, not so much on deads and presses somewhere between. If you can get away with once per week maintenance try squat, bench, dead (alternated weekly with PC), press assistance. The less time spent training strength, the more time you have to build endurance.

If you're maintaining strength you don't require the same volume or frequency, but must maintain intensity. Apparently you can do 1/3 of either and maintain, I find I need more frequency than that, as above. 5x5 squats won't be conducive to redeveloping endurance and is unnecessary. If you've been doing 4x5 for instance, just do 2x5 with the same weight... and so on.

Sack the circuits / WODS. I don't see the point given your aims, they just eat into your recovery ability.

I don't think developing endurance is too difficult, just put the time in at appropriate intensity. Focus on long-steady duration, more intense if you are training for less duration over the week (threshold type stuff) and save intervals (hard ones anyway) for short spells to peak the base of endurance you've establishing leading up to that point.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:16 AM   #12
michael perolio
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I think if you used Coach Ruts "Max Effort Black Box" (3 workouts per week: 1 Full Body, 1 Lower, 1 Upper all followed by a short SMART Metcon around 15 minutes or less) with some dedicated endurance work. 3-4 days a week.

I really like the training that he shares for free. I used it to prepare for Combat Control school and could not have been happy. It gave me a dedicated strength program that also allowed me to program in the extra stuff I needed (Running, Swimming, Cals, Sport Specific)

Mike
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:25 PM   #13
Warren Rupaprt
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Ben and Michael, thanks for your thoughtful replies. Two questions: First, when figuring out a weekly workout schedule, is it best to put the strength day(s) immediately after a rest day (so you're more "fresh"), or immediately before (after you're tired from running the previous days, but will have a day off to recover)?

Second: With respect to the MEBB programing, where does one find "SMART" metcons? I'm assuming cf.com wouldn't be the best place to look in general.

As something of a side note, I'm currently amazed at how far my endurance has fallen over the last 4-6 months, even doing short (8-12 minute) metcons twice a week along with lifting. When I switched to a primary focus on strength in early February, I had built my running up to two interval/tempo runs a week, plus one longer run up to 5 miles. Now, as I'm trying to build back up to just running two miles three times a week while lifting twice a week, I'm finding it incredibly difficult to just make it through the two miles. Plus, I'm sore, tired, and finding myself struggling with squat weights that were relatively easy a month ago.

Perhaps I didn't take enough of a break between my strength program (where I was right at the end of a linear progression) and starting back into endurance training. Regardless of the reason, I certainly feel humbled on all fronts right now. I may need to scale WAY back on the lifting for a few weeks while I focus on running some distance and recovering.
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:55 AM   #14
Shane Skowron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Rupaprt View Post
Ben and Michael, thanks for your thoughtful replies. Two questions: First, when figuring out a weekly workout schedule, is it best to put the strength day(s) immediately after a rest day (so you're more "fresh"), or immediately before (after you're tired from running the previous days, but will have a day off to recover)?
I'm not Ben nor Michael.
But I would say if you add in more strength sessions without regard to rest day, your body will sort of autoregulate based on daily strength level.

Personally I've set PRs on days where I was tired and felt like crap and on days that I was completely fresh. I've also failed to set PR's even though I expected them on days I felt like crap and on days I was completely fresh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Rupaprt View Post
Now, as I'm trying to build back up to just running two miles three times a week while lifting twice a week, I'm finding it incredibly difficult to just make it through the two miles. Plus, I'm sore, tired, and finding myself struggling with squat weights that were relatively easy a month ago.
Personally I would do half that volume 5-6 times per week. I think you will make better progress and feel less burned out. You need to develop a base, and it's hard to develop a base on only a couple sessions per week. Much easier to maintain on a couple sessions per week, though.

Ideally if these runs are nice and easy you'll be making the necessary adaptations to building a base and you'll be spending most of your time in the oxidative pathway. Go too fast and you'll use the other energy pathways, which are harder to recovery from obviously, and you need these pathways for lifting too.
So unless you are completely glycogen depleted or are going too fast, your runs should not hamper your recovery for lifting too much.
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Old 07-21-2011, 04:05 PM   #15
michael perolio
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go to this link. WFS
www.bootcampfitnesskc.com/the-fitness-conduit/

Every MWF he will post both a strength and a metcon for you. The guess work is done.

Also keep in mind that you are the only one that will know what you really need to do.

I try to get my runs in at lunch and my strength in at night. I also swim 2-3 times a week and run 2-4 times a week. This is just how my schedule works.

I actually got this from Shane (Shane, please forgive me if I state incorrect) for some of my runs was to do them at the end of the week when you feel like dog crap. Shane posted that he will do it to simulate tired legs for an ultra. While I would like to do a Ultra in the near future, I use them as a mental test. If I can do it when I am beat I can do it better when I am fresh.
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Old 07-25-2011, 02:15 AM   #16
Ben Byram
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Rupaprt View Post
Ben and Michael, thanks for your thoughtful replies. Two questions: First, when figuring out a weekly workout schedule, is it best to put the strength day(s) immediately after a rest day (so you're more "fresh"), or immediately before (after you're tired from running the previous days, but will have a day off to recover)?

Second: With respect to the MEBB programing, where does one find "SMART" metcons? I'm assuming cf.com wouldn't be the best place to look in general.

As something of a side note, I'm currently amazed at how far my endurance has fallen over the last 4-6 months, even doing short (8-12 minute) metcons twice a week along with lifting. When I switched to a primary focus on strength in early February, I had built my running up to two interval/tempo runs a week, plus one longer run up to 5 miles. Now, as I'm trying to build back up to just running two miles three times a week while lifting twice a week, I'm finding it incredibly difficult to just make it through the two miles. Plus, I'm sore, tired, and finding myself struggling with squat weights that were relatively easy a month ago.

Perhaps I didn't take enough of a break between my strength program (where I was right at the end of a linear progression) and starting back into endurance training. Regardless of the reason, I certainly feel humbled on all fronts right now. I may need to scale WAY back on the lifting for a few weeks while I focus on running some distance and recovering.
Warren,

Sorry the reply has taken a while, I've been busy getting married and I'm currently on honeymoon!

Anyhooo.... In response to your first question I think doing strength workouts 'fresh' is more productive, if you always train in a fatigued state you just can't lift enough to improve. This isn't necessarily a problem on top of a high frequency program, but I think it is if you've only time for a couple of weights days per week. I'm not 100% sure on the answer to this question honestly, but this fits with my experience and simply makes sense if you need to maintain intensity to keep strength when reducing frequency and volume. You won't maintain intensity with battered legs obviously. You could always do upper the following day though.

I don't know about specific met cons, but know enough that if you want endurance, do endurance. Circuits develop several qualities to a moderate level, but to be good you should forget them. If you aim to build endurance and maintain strength, then they serve no purpose. If you want to do them no worries, but the reason your endurance has dropped in my opinion is because they are simply too short. Endurance requires training your oxidative system for reasonable durations, so simply do that with some common sense applied to strength work without destroying yourself trying to do too much. 3x30' runs would do as a minimum to start without getting all fancy.

Last edited by Ben Byram : 07-25-2011 at 02:19 AM. Reason: Too much beer....
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Old 07-25-2011, 09:47 PM   #17
Warren Rupaprt
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Gentlemen,

Thank you for your thoughtful answers (even when on your honeymoon in Ben's case!).

Let me see if I can summarize the advice/perspective I've received here:

1.) First and foremost, 3 endurance workouts a week is a MINIMUM for building my base back up. 4-5 is much better, even if it means lower initial time/distance.
2.) Strength can be maintained (more or less) by keeping up intensity while reducing volume. Two sessions a week is probably the realistic max (assuming a "whole body" type session--squat/press/pull, etc).
3.) Perhaps most importantly--it seems as though endurance runners (who want to be strong) prefer to put running first in their day, then strength train later (ordering their efforts by priority of importance).

So it sounds like the best options for me are to either:

a.) Workout five days a week, with two strength sessions and three endurance sessions on separate days. This would *seem* to be the best compromise for both purposes.
b.) Workout four to five days a week, but on two of those days, add a strength session in the afternoon (assuming morning runs). Adjust all sessions as needed to keep building endurance and avoid burning out.

Considering what I know of my daily/weekly schedule, I'm thinking option "a" will have to be my choice for now, re-evaluating every four weeks or so and adjusting as necessary. Perhaps a Wendler 5/3/1 with a two-day-per-week split, throwing in minimum assistance work on the strength days? (I'm assuming a little bit of restraint on the max-rep squat & deadlift sets will be called for).

One last question if I may: For someone who wants to be a good runner who is strong, is it best to build the endurance base first, then add the strength on top of that (ie, have I done it all backwards recently)? And what are realistic strength benchmarks (squat, DL, etc.) for such a person?
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:11 AM   #18
Ben Byram
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I think you've summarised it well. Start with that and adjust as you feel necessary like you say. For maintenance I would shy away from 10 reps or more, i think that would be a bit high for strength maintenance. I'd stop a rep short of failure every time, any less and strength will slowly drop off I reckon. You may well be different, but I'd squat both sessions, deadlift one and bench / press both. If you're squatting both sessions i bet you could 531 one day and a couple of 5's the other, then you've covered the heavy with the 5s and got some reps with AMRAP. Assistance is clearly down to you.

I believe endurance first, strength second is more effective. Endurance base benefits strength and less so vice versa.

I hope it works for you.
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