Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Nutrition > Supplements

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-29-2007, 05:03 PM   #31
Frank Needham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post

The fish oil I carry has twice the EPA + DHA as the Cosco brand (600mg versus 300mg, both come in a 1000mg capsule).

So, take note of what "potency" of fish oil you're buying. There's an even bigger discrepancy in liquid fish oils.
G, is that what is referred to as "pharmeceutical grade" fish oil? Can you give some more info on it? Thanks....
__________________
"Lack of sleep makes cowards of us all."
Frank Needham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2007, 05:29 PM   #32
Garrett Smith
Senior Member
 
Garrett Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,368
Default

MOD, John's calculations are pretty much on.

That being said, I have a liquid fish oil that gives 2900mg EPA+DHA per teaspoon--that would give a boatload of EPA+DHA in two Tbsp, and also cost a pretty penny per day.

Frank, "pharmaceutical grade" refers to the purity and "assured" potency of the product in question. Is there a strict definition of what "pharmaceutical grade" entails? A quick Google search would lead me to believe that there is NOT.

ProThera (www.protherainc.com), the company that I get my fish oil from, states this on their website regarding the purity of their supplement constituents:

Quote:
Manufacturing Overview
ProThera nutraceuticals are produced in licensed manufacturing facilities that strictly adhere to current Good Manufacturing Practices (cGMP's). Products provided in tablet, capsule, and powder form are made in a manufacturing facility licensed by the State of California as a drug manufacturer and food processor and registered with the Food and Drug Administration as a drug manufacturing establishment. The facility is also approved by governmental agencies in the United Kingdom, the European Community (EC) and Australia to manufacture a drug product. Current GMP's and written standard operating procedures (SOP's) are strictly followed through all stages of production to produce products that meet or exceed United States Pharmacopeia (USP) standards.

Raw Material Specifications
Active ingredients used in ProThera products are selected based on their purity, bioavailability, documented actions, and safety characteristics. USP materials, i.e., those meeting USP standards, are used for those nutrients where this standard exists. Raw materials are purchased exclusively from reputable vendors who provide detailed Certificates of Analysis for every lot of material. These certificates certify that active components, toxic elements, and microbial content are within specified acceptable parameters. Purity and potency of selected raw materials are verified through independent testing laboratories by raw material vendors and ProThera, Inc. All incoming raw materials undergo quarantine, inspection, and evaluation.

Quality Control Laboratory
On-site laboratory personnel evaluate physical characteristics of each finished product including hardness, disintegration, moisture balance, friability, and pH. Purity and potency of finished product is independently verified through outside commercial laboratories using a randomized ingredient and batch testing program.

Excipients
ProThera products are free of artificial flavors, preservatives, and colorings. Naturally-derived, inert excipient materials, including cellulose-based excipients, vegetable-derived magnesium stearate, L-leucine, and silicon dioxide are used in very small amounts as tableting and encapsulation aids. Tableted products are protected with an inert, water-soluble cellulose coating that dissolves readily upon ingestion, thus facilitating tablet disintegration time. Vegetarian Vcaps™ capsules made of plant cellulose are used exclusively for ProThera's two-piece encapsulated products. Common allergens such as wheat, corn, soy, yeast, and dairy are avoided.
The bolded parts may be the most important ones to a company in order to state that it is "pharmaceutical grade". Do I think that some companies are likely lying? Sure. If there is no regulation on the term, then it is up for grabs.
__________________
Garrett Smith NMD CSCS BS, aka "Dr. G"
RepairRecoverRestore.com - Blood, Saliva, and Stool Testing
My radio show - The Path to Strength and Health
Garrett Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2007, 08:46 PM   #33
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John
2 tsp = 9g of fish oil.
If 1 tbsp = 3 tsp, then 1 tbsp = 9*1.5 =13.5g of fishoil. I think this is the tsp to tbsp conversion, right?
So then a couple tbsp = close to 30g of fish oil.
I got it now...going by total grams of fat not the individual EPA/DHA. Check. I always went EPA/DHA as I believe that is how Dr Sears was qualifying how many grams a day to take. I usually take 1-2 tablespoons anyways so looks like I am on track. (I just swig the bottle...no measurements really).

I believe it all started from the original interview with Poliquin
Quote:
Anyone who wants to put on muscle and lose fat should be on 30-45 grams of fish oil per day. That's just three tablespoons of fish oil. It would be a pain in the ass with capsules though because that's around 45 capsules per day, but it's easy with a straight oil.
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1371812

Although in todays world with so many different versions of fish oil, super strength EPA, DHA doubled, etc....would make sense to talk more in terms of EPA/DHA totals to know how to convert with whatever you are taking. Just thinking out loud....

As for the pharma grade I have no idea if that is really something true or just fancy marketing terms to make something more pricey.
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 04:08 AM   #34
Allen Yeh
Senior Member
 
Allen Yeh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 4,245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
I believe it all started from the original interview with Poliquin

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1371812

Although in todays world with so many different versions of fish oil, super strength EPA, DHA doubled, etc....would make sense to talk more in terms of EPA/DHA totals to know how to convert with whatever you are taking. Just thinking out loud....

As for the pharma grade I have no idea if that is really something true or just fancy marketing terms to make something more pricey.
You beat me to it darn you MOD!!!

Seriously though, what I have heard is at his certifications they talk about the high dose of fish oil thing. The article had some discussions from people that claimed to be level I trainers and they said the high dose fish oil thing was only to be done for like a month and after a month you don't need anywhere as much. as the initial month. I'm sure you can find the guy talkign about it if you wish to search through all the discussion pages.

That being said I tried doing the 30 grams/day using capsules and that lasted a little less than a week. UGH!
__________________
"And for crying out loud. Don't go into the pain cave. I can't stress this enough. Your Totem Animal won't be in there to help you. You'll be on your own. The Pain Cave is for cowards.
Pain is your companion, don't go hide from it."
-Kelly Starrett
Allen Yeh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 06:29 AM   #35
John Alston
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: tidy bowl man's apt.
Posts: 1,121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
I believe it all started from the original interview with Poliquin

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1371812

Although in todays world with so many different versions of fish oil, super strength EPA, DHA doubled, etc....would make sense to talk more in terms of EPA/DHA totals to know how to convert with whatever you are taking. Just thinking out loud....
Right, that's it. And I think the Fortified Iron thread linked to some other thread, maybe on anabolic minds or something... one take on the origin of it all, from POliquin:

Quote:
The Single Best Supplement

Q: What's one supplement that every athlete, weekend warrior, and basically any active person should be taking daily?

A: Fish oil. I was first introduced to fish oil twelve years ago by my friend Mauro DiPasquale. I was over at his house and he had fish oil on the counter. I asked him what he used it for and he said, "Charles, this is the most important supplement ever."

He told me to go to Medline and punch in any disease known to man and the words "fish oil" beside it. He challenged me to find a study that didn't show how fish oil could benefit in the treatment of any disease. I gave up after 86 studies!

Why is it so beneficial? It's in our genes. Humans used to consume 300-400 grams of omega-3s per week. If we consume more than two grams a day now it's considered a lot.

There was a study published four years ago that showed that if the US government issued three grams of fish oil per day to American citizens, then the amount of cancer and heart disease would go down by 50% within one year. Most readers don't care about cancer and heart disease, but they may care about this: the biggest limiting factor in naturally training people to getting lean and adding muscle is the consumption (or lack thereof) of omega-3s.

Looking at the body structure of cavemen, they had a lot of muscle mass compared to modern man. They got their omega-3s through the meats they ate. Now, they often ate what the predators left. For example, a lion will eat an antelope from the gut on, so what's left is the skull and long bones. Primitive man would break the skull open and eat the brains. Brains are 60% fat, and 60% of that is DHA, the omega-3. What they've found is that the more brain-sucking was going in those populations, the faster the IQ went up.

"I've lost my appetite."

Primitive man would also break the bones of the prey and suck the marrow, also rich in omega-3, DHA particularly. DHA is the omega-3 most responsible for brain development while EPA is most associated with reducing inflammation.

My athletes would often recognize each other when sitting around a table because those I'd be training would break out the fish oil during the meal. That's how I got the nickname "the fish oil guy" among athletes. But that's also how I get people so lean so fast.

Anyone who wants to put on muscle and lose fat should be on 30-45 grams of fish oil per day. That's just three tablespoons of fish oil. It would be a pain in the ass with capsules though because that's around 45 capsules per day, but it's easy with a straight oil.

Flameout is also a great product. I like the addition of CLA to the EPA and DHA because most of the population is deficient in CLA. When I travel abroad I bring four or five bottles of Flameout instead of my liquid fish oil and take four or five capsules a day.

For those of us interested in positively and optimally altering body composition and maximizing our training efforts, fish oils offer thirteen possible advantages:

1. Cell membrane health: EPA and DHA insure that cell membranes remain healthy. This means that the membranes are flexible and contain larger numbers of insulin receptors that are more receptive and responsive to circulating insulin. This results in decreased fat storage in the adipocytes (fat cells).

2. Fish oils turn on the lipolytic genes (fat burning genes).

3. Fish oils turn off the lipogenic genes (fat storage genes).

4. Fish oils diminish C-reactive proteins, a newly identified risk factor associated with various inflammatory diseases, including atherosclerosis, angina, coronary heart disease, heart attack, stroke, congestive heart failure, and diabetes. The DHA fraction of the fish oil seems to be one most responsible for that protective effect. DHA also has the best ability to reduce blood pressure.

5. Increase utilization of fat stores from the adipocytes.

6. Preferential utilization for energy production once stored in the adipocytes.

7. Reduced inflammation from physical training.

8. Pain management from the reduced inflammation.

9. EPA regulates blood supply to the brain which is essential in maintaining focus in weight training sessions. DHA is important in brain membranes, memory, and cognitive function.

10. Fish oils increase serotonin levels (the happy neurotransmitter). Therefore, fish oils will decrease incidence of depression, anxiety, panic attack, and reduce carbohydrate cravings.

11. Fish oils will improve your cardiovascular risk profile by lowering VLDL, triglycerides, homocysteine, fibrinogen, and increasing HDL levels. Combining fish oils with plant sterols will improve lipid levels even more than either alone.

12. Fish oils can also decrease blood pressure by several mechanisms. These include increases in the vasodilatory compound, nitric oxide, reducing vascular inflammation, blocking the constrictive elements in the vascular wall such as the calcium channels reducing blood viscosity, and inhibiting a blood vessel constrictor (thromboxane). Lipoprotein (a) is another CVD predictor that can be lowered by fish oils (a 19% reduction was seen with natural, stable fish oils and just 4% with a highly purified fish oil).

13. Fish oils are a great stress fighter. Supplementation with n-3 fatty acids inhibits the adrenal activation of steroids, aldosterone, epinephrine, and norepinephrine (catecholamines) elicited by a mental stress, apparently through effects exerted at the level of the central nervous system. Therefore, for the same amount of stress, one will produce fewer stress hormones if consuming fish oils on a regular basis.

In short, fish oil is my number one supplement recommendation!
Here's the source for that quote and more, plus an earlier thread on people mega dosing. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutri...easy-ejls.html
__________________
"Morning, Putski eats it, noon, Putski eats it, night, Putski eats it. Putski loves!"
John Alston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 10:16 AM   #36
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

I always found this part the most interesting...

Quote:
Looking at the body structure of cavemen, they had a lot of muscle mass compared to modern man. They got their omega-3s through the meats they ate. Now, they often ate what the predators left. For example, a lion will eat an antelope from the gut on, so what's left is the skull and long bones. Primitive man would break the skull open and eat the brains. Brains are 60% fat, and 60% of that is DHA, the omega-3. What they've found is that the more brain-sucking was going in those populations, the faster the IQ went up.
So really in Paleo man what was the ratio of EPA to DHA consumption? Did they get more DHA through the brains? Did they get more EPA through all that "grass fed" meat they ate? Considering fish oil is more a 2:1 ratio of EPA/DHA are we really needing more of a 1:1 ratio? More DHA? Should we take a DHA fortified supplement? Which is more responsible for the reduction of cortisol? (aka keep more muscle)

Funny....I hear 3 tablespoons and I think...ehhh, average.....not "high dose"...but then again I forget that most people take one capsule a week or something...and then fill up on Omega 6 grains and wonder why they have inflammation issues of the joints, heart, etc....
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 10:53 AM   #37
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

in a related topic Dr Eades blog talks about a new book and highlights Krill Oil...which I find somewhat interesting (but also very expensive!!)

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/2...and-menopause/

Quote:
I’m going to excerpt a little from his section on supplemental nutrition for the brain. Many readers of this blog appear to be interested in krill oil, so we’ll see what Dr. McCleary has to say about it.

Krill, tiny shrimp-like creatures, inhabit the lowest rung of the food ladder, dining mainly on plankton, which are the actual omega-3 factories. As a result, krill enjoy a low risk of being contaminated by the mercury or other toxins present in their larger fishy cousins. Their oil, in my opinion, is the best source of essential brain fats available. Not only does krill oil provide substantial amounts of EPA and DHA but it also contains a rich supply of another group of critical fatty substances necessary for brain and nerve cell membranes to function properly: the phospholipids, which play important roles in signal transmission, in energy generation, and in the construction of the insulation coating myelin (which helps speed conduction along the brain’s communication pathways). The omega-3 fatty acids in krill oil are bound to these phospholipids. This unique relationship greatly facilitates the passage of the fatty acid molecules through your intestinal wall making them much more bioavailable (easily incorporated by the body). The predominant phospholipid in krill oil is phosphatidylcholine, making it a rich source of choline, which many studies have demonstrated as being important in brain development, learning, and memory. It is also the precursor for the vital memory neurotransmitter acetylcholine.

Krill oil also naturally contains high concentrations of a number of healthy antioxidant compounds that not only protect the krill oil but also protect your brain… These include vitamin A, vitamin E, astaxanthin, and canthaxanthin. Astaxanthin forms a special linkage with EPA and DHA, thus making it more readily available to the body than other antioxidants on the market. For this reason, while consumption of fish oil breaks down and therefore decreases your body’s antioxidant concentrations, krill oil actually increases levels of antioxidants in the body.
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 12:14 PM   #38
Garrett Smith
Senior Member
 
Garrett Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,368
Default

I'm hesitant about krill oil, mainly because of the possibility of major harm to all the of the food chains that build from them. There are already overfishing problems with the omega-3 fish populations from the fish oil industry.
__________________
Garrett Smith NMD CSCS BS, aka "Dr. G"
RepairRecoverRestore.com - Blood, Saliva, and Stool Testing
My radio show - The Path to Strength and Health
Garrett Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 01:43 PM   #39
Casey Williams
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Indpls, IN
Posts: 43
Default

So Dr. G what brands do u recomend? I take Carlson's fish oil liquid right now.
Casey Williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2007, 01:49 PM   #40
Garrett Smith
Senior Member
 
Garrett Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,368
Default

Carlson's is a good enough brand.

I use a combination of ProThera fish oil and Green Pastures "Blue Ice Gold Therapeutics" super-high potency CLO.

Since I use the liquids of both, I can get the ~2900mg EPA+DHA in the one teaspoon of fish oil, and 5000IU A + 500IU D in 1mL (~1/4 tsp) of the Green Pastures oil (plus some Activator X Butter Oil is included in that oil too, increasing utilization).

For folks who use the capsules, it takes 4 of the fish oil caps and one high-potency CLO cap to get to very similar numbers.

I hear a lot of things about the sourcing of the vitamins A & D in various CLOs (as in some manufacturers supposedly add back in synthetic versions after the molecular distillation), so I really want to stick to the Green Pastures folks for that product.
__________________
Garrett Smith NMD CSCS BS, aka "Dr. G"
RepairRecoverRestore.com - Blood, Saliva, and Stool Testing
My radio show - The Path to Strength and Health
Garrett Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:14 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator