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Old 05-22-2007, 07:13 AM   #11
Paul Kayley
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Originally Posted by Derek Simonds View Post
Good point Josh. I have been mucking around with tri's since 2002. 2004 was my most focused year.

Paul my distance is Olympic. At some point in my life I am going to do an Ironman. I am not ready to commit to the time required for the longer distances.
Definately look at Dave Scott's book then. Dont be put off by its age, his training advice is so good... either he is very smart, learned the hard way, or just got lucky with his design!

As for reverse periodisation - its not really relavant to the short stuff IMHO.

I did my first IM at age 20... it was only my 3rd triathlon, and my first open water swim... what a rush! I loved it. That was 18 years ago now. I have done others since and thoroughly recommend it, although be ready to give at least 8 months of your life to it entirely if you want to do it right. Having said that, if you just want to finish one, you could do it without too much sacrifice... just needs a strong mind and a little training!
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Old 05-22-2007, 01:35 PM   #12
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Really good thread...I can only throw out a few thoughts right now:
The Power Running guy makes the points:
1-be a s strong as possible
2-Do some intervals
3-run your race pace fast
4-substrate utilization/depletion is the limiting factor in endurance performance, not O2 consumption/utilization.

Many studies of late have shown that neither myoglobin or hemoglobin are depleted in O2 to a degree that will limit performance, even at extreme workloads.

Ideally one is "very" fat adapted such that, at any given output, one uses more fat and less glucose for activity. As intensity of exercise increases more and more carbs are inevitably used which can cause substrate depletion...also there is the issue of pH change with increasing workloads.


More later!
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:29 PM   #13
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Stop your sceintifical!

I don't have a ton to add but.....My experience is that you can get a lot of bang for your buck with the occasional really long run/ride/swim. The advice above is going to be dead sexy for most endurance athletes. However, don't underestimate how much of your ultimate limits are wound up in being mentally prepared to suffer for hours or days.

My first mountain bike race that was over 50k seemed brutal. Once I had done a week long stage race, 50k desert races seemed like a temporary inconvience that involved some sweating and light chaffing. Overdistance stuff really helped my brain get fitter for the task.
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Old 05-22-2007, 05:17 PM   #14
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Dave I understand.

I have a saying that turns into a mantra while I am competing "Time and Distance Pass". I got it from some famous athlete who I wish I could give credit to.

Robb I have to work on my fat adaptation. I know that I have seriously depleted my substrate on more than one occasion.
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Old 05-23-2007, 12:32 PM   #15
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Dave-
You are spot on. I remember Mark Twight mentioned that shorter intense work provides adequate machinery for longer efforts but not the mental toughness. Only longer efforts can provide this. Some of the central governor theory (the piece Frank Forenich did for the PM for example).

It's interesting also...we have generally recommended CF type WOD's ~ 3-4 days per week, some sprint work and one long effort every 7-10 days for our endurance folks, particularly multisport. Some of these people are getting to a pretty high level of performance, placing well, improving race to race and avoiding most of the repetitive injury issues. Much more time efficient also.

Derek-
Its interesting...after about 2 hrs of say a 70-75% VO2 effort the fueling shifts from intramuscular triglyceride (IMTAG) to blood borne free fatty acids. The body appears reticent to deplete the IMTAG too far and if FFA's are not readily available things will grind down. Increasing IMTAG's and ability to put FFA's into circulation is key for those longer efforts.
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Old 05-23-2007, 03:28 PM   #16
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Dave-
It's interesting also...we have generally recommended CF type WOD's ~ 3-4 days per week, some sprint work and one long effort every 7-10 days for our endurance folks, particularly multisport. Some of these people are getting to a pretty high level of performance, placing well, improving race to race and avoiding most of the repetitive injury issues. Much more time efficient also.
Good to here that's working Robb. I wish I would have been clued in to that type of training instead of the "miles on the bike is money in the bank" mindlessness that permeates roadie culture. especially stupid here and in Cali where there is no offseason.

Are your intense sessions sports specific for the clients at all or are you relying with the typical mix of CF movements?

I had used speed skating off and on to train for cycling but those are very similar limb movements. I do know of one national level Master's cyclocross racer who trained for nationals exclusively on a stair master for a month prior due to a broken collarbone. I think he was top 10 maybe top 5 that year.
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Old 05-23-2007, 04:23 PM   #17
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Dave-

We use pretty standard programming as far as the met-cons but on the shorter side actually. Not many 20-30 min scorchers. More in the 10-15 min range. We hit a strength circuit in the beginning which consists of a lower body movement, typically a DL but occasionally back squat, a press and a pull.

Honestly I think these guys have benefited the most from the direct strength work and just improving their general athleticism. One or two were pretty high level cyclists here but they were borderline feeble on simple movements like air squats. Simple improvements in ROM, recruitment and strength have dramatically improved their on bike performance...and they are generally more capable now.
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Old 05-23-2007, 04:39 PM   #18
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Robb,
thats fascinating - we've been doing something similar for our general population.

Sun - 10 min WU - 10 min WOD specific skill - Marathon WOD 25-40 min

Monday to Friday - 10 min WU - 30 min of Focused Strength & Skill work followed by 5-15 min WOD - 5 min cool down

Sat - 10 min WU - 10 min WOD specific skill - Marathon WOD 25-40 min

Our longest has been 42:00 minutes for the slowest person.

We're seeing some pretty outstanding performances. I've got a 130lb girl who did FGB with men's weights and scored 279 on her first time through the workout - pretty wild stuff. I've got some other stuff I think would be cool to mull over in a different kind of forum.
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Old 05-23-2007, 04:50 PM   #19
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I remember Mark Twight mentioned that shorter intense work provides adequate machinery for longer efforts but not the mental toughness. Only longer efforts can provide this.
I believe this whole-heartedly. Last year I ran my first marathon. My training program consisted of the CrossFit WOD Monday-Thursday, then a long run on Saturday. The long runs increased steadily until I reached 20 miles. It worked very well for me. It kept me injury free (the first time I've been able to run injury free in 15 years) and I finished with a respectable performance. Could I have done better on a traditional marathon training program, maybe.

I do have one disagreement. I'd have to say that the CF stuff at times was much more difficult (for that mental toughness) then the long runs ever were.
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Old 05-23-2007, 05:05 PM   #20
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I do have one disagreement. I'd have to say that the CF stuff at times was much more difficult (for that mental toughness) then the long runs ever were.

Jeff,

You raise a good point. This really goes to an issue that for me is more of an annoyance. Cyclist et al use the term "suffering" or "knowing how to suffer" when if fact the skill of suffering is a lot more about knowing how let yourself relax...learn to be efficient in the movement as your bio-mechanics fade or get sloppy.

My feeling is that the overdistance help you tune in to how your body mechanics will change as you fatigue. I sued to race a lot of track cyclists who were blazing fast Cat 1/2's on the track but could barely hang with the Cat 3 pack at a local critierium. I know these guys were extremely fit for cycling generally but had no idead how to be efficient and recover from a deficit say 20 minutes or 50 minutes into an event. This is much more of a learned thing than a chemistry thing.

The whole idea that somehow long nasty rides or runs many days a week are going to teach you something about tuffness is BS. What you are tyring to learn is how your body reacts to pain and stress of the longer event and how you can be efficient at making it hurt LESS.
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