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Old 05-29-2007, 06:41 PM   #11
Craig Cooper
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I decided to ask Eade's about low carb diets and sprinting performance:

Dr. Mike,

Have you had any experience with LC diets being unable to provide fuel for intense exercise (sprinting, CrossFit Style Metabolic Workouts, etc.)?

This study:

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2

seems to suggest that after one has become fat adapted, endurance exercise performance returns to normal, but sprint performance remains poor. The suggested reason is that this type of exercise can not be fueled by fat, it must be fueled by glucose.

If this is true, does this mean that Paleolithic man’s ability to hunt while in ketosis was poor?

Hi Craig–

I’ve seen this same phenomenon reported in a number of papers. In long stretches of high-intensity exercise, performance falls off with a low-carb diet.

But, I don’t think that would impair Paleolithic man’s hunting ability or ability to survive. No Paleolithic man - irrespective of how much carb he consumed - was going to be able to out sprint a lion chasing him or was going to be able to run down a deer. Hunting was a group effort involving long bouts of low-intensity exercise (tracking and locating the game) and very short surges - just a few seconds at a time - of intense effort to bring it down.

I can’t see Paleolithic man indulging in sprints just to keep in shape, so there was really no necessity to evolve a system that would perform optimally under those circumstances.

Another thought…Paleolithic man was on a low-carb diet from birth. Modern man is on a high-carb diet from birth. Some modern men decide to go on low-carb diets later on. And they adapt relatively quickly as far as endurance exercise is concerned. Maybe the adaptation period for high-intensity exercise simply takes a lot longer than we think.

Cheers–

MRE
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Old 05-29-2007, 09:40 PM   #12
Brad Hirakawa
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"Another thought…Paleolithic man was on a low-carb diet from birth. Modern man is on a high-carb diet from birth. Some modern men decide to go on low-carb diets later on. And they adapt relatively quickly as far as endurance exercise is concerned. Maybe the adaptation period for high-intensity exercise simply takes a lot longer than we think. "

... also may want to consider the maternal diet in this respect. All theory fyi, I'm not a nutrition guy. But, lasting changes in gene expression can sometimes take a bit to set.

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Old 05-30-2007, 06:25 AM   #13
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Scotty Hagnas has been posting some sick times on WOD's like Angie...in a fasted, low carb state. I think one can become much more efficient at using ketones for energy but hepatic glycogen replacement may be at work here. Scotty is not doing burners EVERY day. One met con then several days of strength work. That time may allow for sufficient glycogen repletion to occur.

This is a point that has rattled in my head for some time: Should food availability dictate training for the health and longevity biased? It starts looking a bunch like devany's recommendations....a day or two here and there at very high work output, then many days of lower level activity. I'm not sure that this will put one at the absolute top of the food chain in CrossFit World...but I think it's pretty good.
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Old 05-30-2007, 09:10 AM   #14
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It seems as though workout frequency is an important part of this equation. If one is training to sprint on a frequent basis while eating low carb, then I'd imagine a lot of difficulty in training. The central point to the DeVany's writing seems to be intermittancy and using and element of chaos to create harmony.

A friend of mine trains a lot of high-level boulders. He put one on the Metabolic diet as this guys was getting ready for nationals a few years ago. His training was frequent almost daily bouldering sessions, campusing, one-arms, and GPP, with rest days being occupied by hiking in the front range of CO. He didn't do so well and felt 'out of it' and flat despite a pre-event carb load.

Since food availability is largely a choice for most of us, I would say that for the health and longevity biased, training and fuel should be in Consonance and dissonance with eachother. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonance_and_dissonance
In other words, we make choices that allow for our knowledge of metabolic pathways to make our health harmonized with metabolically efficient and adaptable eating habits.
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Old 05-30-2007, 03:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Cooper View Post
I can’t see Paleolithic man indulging in sprints just to keep in shape, so there was really no necessity to evolve a system that would perform optimally under those circumstances.
I think that is the key there. I would imagine, based on my limited experience with paleolithic man, that any sprint-type work would have definitely been performed intermittently at best.

This is my favorite part of this whole mess, speculating what paleo man's lifestyle was like.

Not to say that trying to mimic their lifestyle as closely as possible is the key to health and longevity.
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Old 05-30-2007, 07:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Cooper View Post
This is my favorite part of this whole mess, speculating what paleo man's lifestyle was like.
UNfortunately I do not think he played hockey....so after some time off and trying lower carbs....coming back to hockey was a disaster....completely bonked....got lean and then lost athletic performance....so now back to a reasonable carb diet...timed around workouts
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:50 AM   #17
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Mike, that's the biggest problem that I have with low carbing. I mean, yeah, health and longevity is great, but high intensity competitive sports are fun! I'm going to start playing hockey again after an almost 4 year hiatus and I can't imagine trying to fuel those efforts without carbs.
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Old 05-31-2007, 09:16 AM   #18
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I think you guys are right...taking advantage of that post WO window and squirreling carbs into the muscles quickly allows for some high intensity of training but it minimizes insulin spikes.
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Old 05-31-2007, 10:46 AM   #19
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How much time have you guys spent in the wild?

You do realize that animals live in a near constant state of heightened awareness just short of paranoia. I guess I would call it calm readiness.

Sprinting is play - quick escape - or the social hunt

even the largest of predators spend lots of time sprinting at short high intensities. Ever seen a polar bear hunt? Ever seen a fox hunt? It looks oddly similar though foxes are very small in comparison. Why would we be any different in our needs or habits? We are more adaptable - I think the argument against short high intensity output in evolution is an argument made by those who don't spend much time observing the natural world.

Knowing that I can't possibly out run a Lion doesn't mean I'm not going to damn well try! Its instinct and I think the argument is flawed...
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Old 05-31-2007, 11:57 AM   #20
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My dogs sleep for 23 1/2 hours a day......and once in a while chase a squirell or mailman....and love to eat....add beer and you have my ideal lifestyle.
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