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Old 10-27-2006, 11:03 AM   #11
Steve Shafley
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Why just whey? I can see Greg's point, due to his sensitivities, but many have no problems with varying their protein sources.

MPI (milk protein isolates) are really coming on strong right now, based on the satiation effect they have. They are a blend of wheys and caseinates. More expensive. Supposedly have a chalking taste, maybe not the best mouth feel.

Micellar casein is another decent choice, you do get this in the MPI too.

Another solution is egg whites, a buddy of mine bought something like 20# of egg whites from a company, and would use the egg whites in the blender for his quick protein source. By the end, this was making him gag, but your mileage might vary.

Why not eat a pound of grassfed beef or buffalo for that matter? I used protein powders of various types for well over a decade, and when I stopped, I didn't have any performance drops, despite not having made up the difference in whole food proteins. Granted, I would imagine that damn near everyone has their diet dialed in better than me, and without a buffer of bodyfat to pull energy from when needed, there could be some performance declines.
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Old 10-27-2006, 11:49 AM   #12
Jeremy Jones
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I haven't heard of MPIs before. Got any source reccomendations?

I have not had any Micellar casein protein either. Again, what brand and where can I get it?



I would love to eat a chunk of meat instead of a shake. The problem is my schedule. Mondays and Wednesdays I leave the house at 5:30am and get home at 12am or 1 that night (Park workout, Engineering, teach M.A., M.A. workout and WOD). Carrying food has become a problem and we all know how impossible it is to purchase good food quickly and easily (no drive-thru grass fed beef sources around here that I know of).

Just carrying a days worth of food can be problematic when you ride a motorcycle most days.

A MR shake would make this a lot easier for me. Not to mention, I know I am not getting food from the best sources (too much fruit, regular beef, some lunch meat, tortillas pretty regularly and dairy in small amounts regularly).
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Old 10-27-2006, 12:14 PM   #13
Steve Shafley
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The Protein Factory
True Protein (depending if you are on the East coast/West coast)
Allthewhey.com
Also, at DPSnutrition.net, the Xtreme Formulations protein formula was recommended to me.

The first two places are custom blending places.

It sounds to me like a micellar/MPI protein would be nice for your situation.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Shafley View Post
Why not eat a pound of grassfed beef or buffalo for that matter?
I do this (beef) for both breakfast and dinner. Highly recommended.
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Old 10-27-2006, 03:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Shafley View Post
Why just whey? I can see Greg's point, due to his sensitivities, but many have no problems with varying their protein sources.
The problem is not varying sources--this is a must. The problem is with consuming obscene amounts of protein--like 400g/day at 200 lbs BW. I have encountered few individuals who can tolerate this digestively without hydrolyzed protein supplements. Believe me, if I could find a hydrolyzed egg protein powder, I would gladly use it.

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Why not eat a pound of grassfed beef or buffalo for that matter?
Assuming around 7g protein/oz, that's 112 g protein--meaning to get that 400 g/day, you'd need to eat 3.6 pounds of meat. Maybe I'm a lightweight, but that's a lot of chewing--I don't have the time or the patience!
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Old 10-27-2006, 07:46 PM   #16
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Yeah, that's a lot.

But, do you need that much protein?

Have you personally noticed a performance difference between, oh say, 200g of protein daily or 400g of protein daily?

Because, I gotta say, I probably eat 160-180 daily, and carry more lean tissue than most people I meet who don't use AAS. I cannot be called lean, but I am not obsese either.

Does the protein requirement go up as the carb drop? Shouldn't the fat go up as carbs drop (good fats)?

Note that I am not being a dickhead, asshole, or rabble-rouser right now (despite my stellar reputation as such), and that I am just asking these questions to help further along the discussion and the understanding of the nutritional requirements of a power athlete.

In fact, that would be an interesting thread right there...talking about the nutritional requirements of a power athlete...a thrower, a lifter, maybe even a jumper or sprinter as well.
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Old 10-27-2006, 08:01 PM   #17
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400 g is more than I would eat for maintenance, for sure. At the moment, though, I'm gaining back a bunch of weight and then a little extra, and I find the uber doses of protein helpful for this--but that's only 1600 kcals, and I'm eating a whole lot more than that a day, so the % of protein isn't actually as high as it seems, more like 40% or so.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:40 PM   #18
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Stuart-
We vent CO2 at the lungs and if we ingest excess acid (H+) we shift [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Roberto/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msoclip1/01/clip_image002.jpg[/IMG] things from H2CO3 ---> H2O+ CO2(g)...this is part of that buffering capacity I mentioned. It deals with over all pH for the short term but it shifts the relative % of CO2 disolved in the system to a lower P> Pressure CO2. This is the short term solution for all low pH conditions and over time will be noted as a "respiratory shift" to balance these issues. Long term this will affect renal output and is characterized as a "renal shift", but unless we introduce soem form of buffering agent we are still stuck with the net acid load. If I'm missing somethign here, my apologies but once we ingest either acid or base we see a shift in net equilibria consistent with the dpth of buffering capacity of the overall system.

Now in the casess of Potasium citrate/bicarb this is the introduction of a net base load which is pretty confusing why it does anything to enhace performance with what we have recently learned aobut lactate and its role as a fuel and H+ concentrations apparently not affecting powerproduction:http://www.powerrunning.com/Exercise...erformance.htm



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Yeah it had me stumped too. Until I read that the hydrogen ions in citric acid (and ascetic acid) are expired in carbonic acid by the lungs. Not just a few either. More than enough to make the net metabolic action of these two acids alkalizing. One article mentioned that you can easily prove this by testing urine ph an hour after consuming either citric or ascetic acid (vinegar) and it will have become more basic. To me, this makes perfect evolutionary sense. Citric acid was (is) a common component of most digestible vegetation. It's no evolutionary mistake that the citric acid metabolic cycle is so important to almost all mammalian metabolism. The power of the kidneys to express excess acidity is indeed limited. But the respiratory potential for excess carbonic acid loss is prodigious. Even an almost imperceptible change in the depth of breathing will substantially alter the amount of carbonic acid expelled. The whole notion of 'on board' buffering of net acidity by alkaline reserves has always struck me as a little simplistic. We are definitely not a closed system. In fact I'd hazard a guess that the reason the kidneys capacity to expel excess acidity is so limited in evolutionary terms is that the potential loss of respiratory carbonic acid was so formidable.
This is not to say that high chloride intakes (in the modern diet either sodium or potassium chloride) are not net acidity problematic, because (in the terminology of your wikipedia source) chlorine bound hydrogen ions are not easily accessible by the carbonic acid cycle. But those in citric acid and ascetic acid are. So if you've got a high protein diet and also a high salt (either sodium or potassium chloride) intake, I can well concede that on board alkaline reserve buffering of the acidity of chlorine is necessary.



While I was researching this I came across a really interesting study on the endurance/power benefits of supplementation with sodium bicarbonate/ potassium bicarb and/or potassium citrate (which just happens to be the result of combining, you guessed it citric acid and potassium bicarbonate). Something to do with mitigating the effects of lactic acid buildup. Do you know anything about this?

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Old 10-28-2006, 12:43 PM   #19
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Steve-
That would be a good thread. I think John Berardi tackled this topic and it brings up some interesting points.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:23 PM   #20
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Robb, I think we're missing something. All medicinal systemic / urinary alkalizers contain substantial amounts of citric acid. Sometimes tartaric acid as well. These are medications that are meant to be taken in high doses (upwards of ten gms of citric acid) for many days. They do also contain equivalent amounts of bicarbonate. But if citric acid had a net acid load effect, why would a systemic ALKALIZER contain them at all.

I really do want to understand this better .

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