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Old 06-27-2007, 01:33 PM   #11
Dave Van Skike
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Well it sounds smarter when you say it......


My vast preference is for a simple approach. Art is worrying about some pretty philosophical points vis a vis paelo-ish-ness..

I agree, he gets a lot of stuff mostly "right"..in that, it gels with current thinking, to a degree, it's interally consisitent (sort of) there are reasonable minds that have similarly opined... but then....

boom, white teefs.

you can learn a lot about someone by the way they say stuff as well as what they say.... Take Gregg G...no wait, let's not.

Take Shaf.... yeah he sometimes comes off as an opinionated prick, but he is never dishonest, has nothing to gain from spreading true knowledges and occasionally outs himself with dungeon excercise videos and skirt pics....

point being, you can trust a man with no shame and no dicernable agenda.

As for the scientificals ....With thsi appraoch, I don't get it...My quesiton (as always) is "what is the goal?"...then~

what is the best tool to reach that goal? Is that a tool that I understand how to use? If this is such a great tool, why am I the only one using it, Am I in fact the only one using it? Can I measure the effectiveness of this tool (aside from the whiteness of my teef?....ok I'll stop now.)

If Kelly Bagget were standing over my shoulder, I would be inclined to try something like what he is describing, hearing it's something Art snatched out a BB mag makes me less likely to believe it...doesn't mean it's not true, I just lean towards initially asking the simple questions.

what is the source?
what is the evidence?
if the evidence is a testimonial, why should I trust it?


Sorry to bag needlessly on the old coot...I'm stopping now.
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:43 PM   #12
Robb Wolf
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White Teefs...that is freaking FUUUNAHY!

Good questions...what's the purpose in Art's training, in THAT type of training?

Not sure but Art does seem to have a "this is how I do it, this is why I do it...if you don't like it, get phocked.

It's kind of a Zen thing.

I'm not sure WHAT his agenda is other than sharing his experiences and offering some ideas of what has worked for him.

Regarding simple...tough to beat meat, veggies, fruit olive oil...some brief hard sessions in the gym to maintain strength, muscle mass and metabolic efficiency so you can ride motorcycles and chase chicks like Wonder Woman. The guy is a freaking genius!

Maybe it's reflective of how painfully geeky I am but when Art says something "odd" it pretty much bounces off me...I don't give it much thought given an otherwise amazing offering of work. When You consider his original essay and that it was on the net in like '95...that guy has changed and influenced MANY things. I think for others the goofy stuff incites a desire to circle in and go for the kill...but the guy has never criticized, extorted to publicly executed anyone....no malice I have ever detected. Just a bright dude doing what he does.
DKP)
But again, perhaps I' a Devany Knob Polisher (DKP).
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:41 PM   #13
Dave Van Skike
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Fair enough.

If you need to exorcise your latent geek, take a drive up to the old neighborhood, I'll track down a spare motorcycle for you to go out hooning about. It's been a while but, if your so inclined, we could actually get arrested.
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Old 06-28-2007, 06:23 AM   #14
Mark Fenner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Allison View Post
Over at T-Nation, Chad Waterbury seems to be offering up a different perspective on recruiting fast twitch fibers:
Just to be clear, this isn't an idea novel to Waterbury. Look at an undergraduate neuroanatomy textbook and it will tell you the same thing.

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Old 06-28-2007, 06:40 AM   #15
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Waterbury = very subpar ideas sensationalized.

My agenda: You just haven't seen it yet. Wait for my sell out. You'll be disgusted and in a little bit of awe when it happens.
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Old 06-28-2007, 07:17 AM   #16
Mark Fenner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb Wolf View Post
if you look at his recommendation and those of kelly baggett regarding fast twitch fibers they are remarkably similar
I don't think Kelly B. would agree with what DeVany is quoted as saying here. From DeVany, "And, as important, you recruit more muscle fiber, the primary key to real strength and quickness." KB knows that what you need for strength and quickness is a function of where you are now. See:

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/...ntStrokes.html

Where you are now is measured both by your strength and your speed. Strength is an issue of muscle; speed is an issue of rate coding in the nervous system. Putting them together is power. Recruitment is a separate (and also important) issue. Strength + Speed + Recruitment = What you can Do. I think of recruitment as part of the "skill" of strength but this might not be the "one right way" to think about it. In fact it might be wrong.

You don't have to fatigue the slow fibers to get to the fast fibers (you mention this below for O-lifters). You just have to --require enough force-- to get the fast fibers to contribute. Also, the first set(s) in DeVany's proposed method are only using slow fibers unless you focus on speed (i.e., dynamic effort) -- and DeVany doesn't seem to say anything about that. Eight reps on a 15RM isn't going to do much of anything for you, is it?

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Many "good" olifters and sprinters bypass the slower twitch fiber entirely in max efforts, so they are not working up the heirarchey as Devany puts it.
I'm not sure, but I think that it's not that they completely skip the slow twitch fibres, I think it is that their RFD (rate of force development) is so high, that the fast twitch fibers kick in VERY quickly. Or do they truly skip the slow-twitch? Or, do they just not have much slow-twitch to use? Or, are their slow-twitch muscle fibers innervated with neurons that have become very fast-twitch in their firing characteristics?

Quote:
he was not far off the masters PL totals for his weight and age group...as a non specialist.
If the values don't occur in a meet, you can't compare them. Bodybuilders have some crazy numbers (sometimes they are even true); but they also have unpassable form.

Quote:
Another point: whether the endocrine response of exercise is the driving force in muscle gain or not I guess is debatable but there does seem to be this hit-esque thing of doing "enough" work to cause adaptation, eat a truck load of food and you will grow:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...le-in-4-weeks/
Practical Programming has a fair bit to say about utilizing hormonal response to program training. In particular, they are looking at the T-to-C ratio. Reading it might get some other thoughts going.

Anytime someone quotes the "little-known Colorado experiment" and then goes on to show miraculous results, I get a bit skeptical. Just a hint. The guy started at 150 pounds and hadn't strength trained before (had he?). Anything works for a novice. He's also (apparently) a successful dancer; likely he has very good kinesthetics and good reactive ability. "Pure" muscular work should fit him to a "T". Finally, I would be very curious to see his one month later measurements, especially if he didn't continue strength training. As they say, easy come, easy go. I hypothesize that it was essentially "all pump".

As Practical Programming says, it's basically impossible for one set to be enough work to force adaptation ... except in the novice ... or the severely overtrained where it is promoting recovery, not adaptation.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:23 AM   #17
Mike ODonnell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Shafley View Post
Waterbury = very subpar ideas sensationalized.

My agenda: You just haven't seen it yet. Wait for my sell out. You'll be disgusted and in a little bit of awe when it happens.
What....Overblown and Vegas style productions of basic ideas over at T-nation inorder to maintain a returning customer base to promote a line of supplements too?? Hmmmmmmm.....they have taken my evil plan....ahhhh, it's all business....

and yes...I hope to sell out too one day....being a martyr doesn't pay as well...it's all the presentation....SHOWTIME!...

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Old 06-28-2007, 09:31 AM   #18
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Steve-
If we can help promote the horrors let us know...guaranteed fun and to piss many, many people off.

Mark-
Great observations. The piece about skipping the slow twitch/lower threshold fibers is from the Weightliftign Encyclopedia and I think Sportivney Press. Undoubtedly there are adaptations towards the fast twitch type with sufficient volume.

Right again about the colorado experiment..untrained to mildly trained but I think the point that is frequently missed is a little hard training and a LOT of hard eating can yield remarkable results.

The Baggett/Devany link may be tenuous or exist only in my own mind...I do see similarities in both approaches.
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Old 06-28-2007, 10:24 AM   #19
Neal Winkler
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Mark,

I've got to disagree a bit with your assesemnt of strength and speed.

Muscle fiber recruitment is not a seperate issue from strength, it's one of the main issues. Also, rate coding does not determine the speed part of the equation, it determines the strength, and is the major contributor of strength the closer you get to max. The speed part of the equation is determined by rate of force development.

So, if you mean to say that "what you can do" = power, then "what you can do" = strength X speed, where strength = size of muscle cell + recruitment + rate coding.

Let me know if I was misunderstanding what you meant.
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Old 06-28-2007, 11:36 AM   #20
Mark Fenner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Winkler View Post
Mark,

I've got to disagree a bit with your assesemnt of strength and speed.

Muscle fiber recruitment is not a seperate issue from strength, it's one of the main issues. Also, rate coding does not determine the speed part of the equation, it determines the strength, and is the major contributor of strength the closer you get to max. The speed part of the equation is determined by rate of force development.

So, if you mean to say that "what you can do" = power, then "what you can do" = strength X speed, where strength = size of muscle cell + recruitment + rate coding.

Let me know if I was misunderstanding what you meant.
Neal,

Please do disagree. I knew my comments were loose enough to get me in trouble *laugh*. The ideas I was trying to separate were the notions of (1) recruitment (application of more motor units to generate force), (2) rate (of firing of neurons), and (3) muscle (cross-sectional area of activated muscle cells). I didn't do so well.

When I said "what you can do" I was trying to be agnostic about whether you were performing speed sensitive work (short sprints, jumping, reactive work), power oriented work (dynamic effort work, olympic lifting), or strength work (max concentric, isometric, eccentric work). Of course, all are just at different points on the power-curve.


I did want to get at: power = strength * speed = xyz. I got confused in the xyz part; I crossed "speed" and "rate" for silly reasons (synonyms?).

strength = size of muscle cell + recruitment + rate coding

Good, yes, thank you! Now what is speed?

speed = ?

It needs to be a function of reflex (various stretch-reflexes), elasticity (storage of elastic energy in the tendons, fascia, etc.), and RFD. So, maybe:

speed = reflex + elasticity + RFD

So, a grand equation:

power = (size + recruitment + rate coding) * (reflex + elasticity + RFD)

Also, what I thought of as recruitment should really be inter-muscular coordination which will also affect display ability, but is not the same as recruitment as it is normally discussed in neuroanatomy.

Sorry for my sloppiness.

Thanks,
Mark
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