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Old 06-28-2007, 01:49 PM   #21
Neal Winkler
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Mark,

I think speed is going to be starting strength + rate of force development, and then maybe reactive strength. But there seems to be a bit of overlap between strength and speed when it comes to reactive strength, so I'll have to double check that and get back to you.
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:40 PM   #22
Mark Fenner
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Neal,

Siff (Supertraining 5th, pg 8) gives the following effects of training stimulus for strength. These aren't quite strength "producing" qualities, but they are close, right?

Structural:
Hypertrophy

Functional:
Intermuscular: Synch, Sequence, Inhibition, Disinhibition
Intramuscular: Number/Rate/Pattern Encoding
Reflex: Facilitation, Inhibition

Motor Learning

On speed, Siff does a great job throwing out different terms, but doesn't put them together in good relationships. We have:

Starting, acceleration and maximal strength ... on the force-time curve, starting strength is the initial value (at time ~ 0), the slope of the curve is determined by the acceleration strength, and maximal strength is the top peak of the curve. Maximal RFD is termed "explosive strength".

Siff goes on (pg 107, pseudo-quote): "explosive strength is commonly displayed in athletic movements ... [utilizing elastic energy of eccentric movement] ... the switch from [eccentric to concentric] is reactive ability".

Siff gives the following strength indices (pg 108):

Starting, Acceleration strength, RFD, Explosive Strength (max RFD), maximum strength, strength-endurance, and deceleration strength

Deceleration strength will play a large role in rebound ability and speed. If my calf can't sufficiently resist my falling body weight, I can't store energy (and hence I can't make use of stored energy) in my Achilles tendon.

Figure 2.26, pg 121 seems vaguely relevant as well.

Siff talks about speed/speed-strength/quickness on pages 137-140. I need to read it a couple of times to get it figured out.

A nice source for speed and strength discussions if Kelly B's Vertical Jump Development Bible. He focuses on: RFD and limit, absolute, relative, starting, and reactive strengths (not necessarily in that order). He also includes force absorption (eccentric strength) and "pure" speed work (catching flies with chopsticks).

I'd appreciate any more sense we can make of this. I don't have Zatsiorsky, but I've always found it more readable than Supertraining.

Thanks Neal,
Mark

Last edited by Mark Fenner : 06-29-2007 at 09:26 AM. Reason: Hopefully clarified a sentence or two
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Old 06-29-2007, 09:09 AM   #23
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Good stuff guys...really has me thinking on this topic.
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Old 06-29-2007, 10:13 AM   #24
Greg Battaglia
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Rant begin:

I personally think that Devany's ideas on exercise are great if your looking for lots of speed and power. It really depends on what you WANT, as others have said. Personally, viewing the whole philosophy of exercise in an evolutionary template, I tend to agree with virtually everything that Frank Forencich has to say. I think people tend to really over think this stuff, as they do with diet. No one has really stated what the goal of this type of training might be, but as far as I can tell, it's geared toward health/longevity. The power, strength, and speed are simply [i]side effects[i] of the training. If you're an elite athlete then of course you're going to need to worry about micro-managing all this stuff and get really specific with all of the numbers and details involved in eliciting an ideal response. If you're after longevity and quality of life, which may or may not be the case, then debating this stuff is a fruitless endeavor. I don't think that Devany is exactly trying to beat world PL records, and despite this fact, as Robb noted, he happens to actually come pretty damn close. For the purposes of longevity/health I think it's a relatively closed case. Eat Paleo, move your body dynamically and varied in a medium-distance fashion on a daily basis, wake and fall with the sun, and avoid stress. That's all you need to know. Yet, people will endlessly debate whether Kelley Baggets protocol is better or worse than Devany's, or whether KB training is better than crossfit, for example. Who the hell cares??!! It's all about input, forget about the result. Exercise for the stimulus, the good feeling you get, and for health improvement and a greater quality of life. I don't even do the WOD anymore because it made me miserable. The idea of working that hard wasn't appealing to me, and I dreaded every met-con workout. Do I still workout hard? Yes, but under my own guidelines. Now I go for intense bike rides in the hills. Intense sessions on the heavy bag. Long walks in the woods interspersed with intermittent sprints whenever I get the urge. I do construction work in which I lift heavy objects in odd positions: overhead, up stairs with unbalanced weight, over rough terrain with heavy boards, up hills with a heavy wheel barrow, etc. Stop worrying about muscle fibers and energy systems, and all kinds of scientific jargon. Get your ass outside and move!

Rant ends, sorry.
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Old 06-29-2007, 11:44 AM   #25
Dave Van Skike
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Do you feel better now?
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Old 06-29-2007, 11:49 AM   #26
Greg Battaglia
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Absolutely
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:02 PM   #27
Garrett Smith
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Greg,
Let those who enjoy this type of discussion do their thing...

Nearly all of us have things we love to go into the minutiae about...

From http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...l+Masturbation
Quote:
Mental Masturbation is a slang term for engaging in intellectually stimulating conservation with little or no practical purpose. The phrase is often associated with academics who engage in discourse that many people find uninteresting or irrelevant.
If that's not what goes on regularly here at the PMenu, I don't know what is actually going on then...
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:23 PM   #28
Robert Allison
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
Greg,
Let those who enjoy this type of discussion do their thing...

Nearly all of us have things we love to go into the minutiae about...
Exactly. While I agree that at some point doing must take precedence over thinking, as a confirmed fitness nerd I will probably always enjoy exploring these concepts intellectually. Nothing wrong with that, IMO, as long as the doing remains primary. This obviously has implications for life beyond fitness.

And, like Robb, I'm probably a member of the DKP (DeVany Knob Polisher) Club.
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:07 PM   #29
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LOL, I completely agree....100%! I was just being a pain in the ass, a nuisance. I just wanted to vent a little, I wasn't really pissed off or anything. After spending countless nights in front of the computer screen 'til 4:00am reading pages and pages of information on diet, exercise, sleep (which is what I really should have been doing!!), stress reduction, and just overall health info I realized that over analyzing is going to do just the opposite for my health. Then there's the prodigious volume of scientific literature over at www.pubmed.com, and that's when the headache really begins. I'm typically an anal perfectionist, something that may appear great on the surface, but is really not a healthy trait. Just recently I've been reading a lot of Frank Forencich's info ( www.goanimal.com ) on evolution and simplicity, etc and have basically done a 180 degree turn in my ways. I have basically adopted that "Eh, who cares, as long as you get the main picture, you're good" type of mentality. It has certainly done wonders for my stress levels. Just need a little break from the nerdy stuff to be the careless cool-guy for a little; my nerdiness will probably return in the future. Anyway, nerd on!
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:58 PM   #30
Garrett Smith
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Greg,
You'll benefit greatly from your new outlook. I for one completely forgive and understand your vent, as I did a "vent" on you a little bit the other day.

Once one realizes the infinite number of levels to any subject of study, the ability to step back and look at the big picture (seeing both the forest and the trees) will help relieve a lot of the stress of never knowing everything (or ever really "knowing" anything!).

Anyway, I am an admitted nerd with definite limits on my nerdiness. Too nerdy and my head hurts. I'll also be posting my ideas on a revamped workout schedule soon, one that will be a "concurrent" strength and GPP plan, not for any super scientific reasons, simply for the fact that I like doing a little bit of everything.

Nerd on! Hear hear!!!
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