Pavelesque Block Training?

[Dave Van Skike]

Hokay...

This may seem a little remedial but here goes...I have always wondered if the 3 weeks of strength, then 3 weeks of MetCon approach works. I've seen it advocated but have never seen anyone actually do it. I've read plenty of folks with strength goals who switch to density work every so often to broaden their work capacity but haven't heard any ringing endorsements.

Robb, I had to dig for this one.


"So now most of our non-bariatric/weight loss clients...folks who are actually trying to get high level CF type performance...we have these folks start off with DL, a press and a pull...linear progression until we need to shift to block style periodized training. Then some kind of WOD, sprints or the like. It is very effective. I would not doubt that a Pavelesque approach of 2-3 weeks of strength work followed by 2-3 weeks of met-con might work even better but our clients are crack heads for the Met-cons."

How much disruption in a basic periodization program does this cause, it is person to person? Is the impact of switching mitigated by sticking with largely teh same movements~ squat for strength then squats in a MetCon format? It seems like switching protocol would take almost a week to acclimate to. Kind of a stepwise approach, two steps forward, one step back?

[Nick Cummings]

Interesting topic. I do something like this in that I get bored of following the CF WoD and do 2-3 months of Starting Strength. I could be way off but I would think you would have more success giving yourself at least 4-6 weeks in each segment. One thing I did like about switching was that doing Starting Strength gave me 4 days a week off as compard to 2 off when doing Crossfit. I think my body responded well to the additional time off. I may try doing every other day in a format like: CF, off, ME, off, CF, off, ME, off, etc. I see this working really well when I am busier and not up on my sleeping and eating.

[Dave Van Skike]

Originally Posted by Nick Cummings

Interesting topic. I do something like this in that I get bored of following the CF WoD and do 2-3 months of Starting Strength. I could be way off but I would think you would have more success giving yourself at least 4-6 weeks in each segment. One thing I did like about switching was that doing Starting Strength gave me 4 days a week off as compard to 2 off when doing Crossfit. I think my body responded well to the additional time off. I may try doing every other day in a format like: CF, off, ME, off, CF, off, ME, off, etc. I see this working really well when I am busier and not up on my sleeping and eating.

I'm coming at this question from the opposite direction, I have been doing about 5 months straight of a strength work with almost no structured conditioning work other than cycling, the odd jump rope session and walking with a weighted vest. I have plenty of energy for fun stuff and I am loath to shift as I have been making consistent progress with 2-3 PR's per month.....

But, I am interested to see if I can add in different types of work without regressing and possibly advancing...

[Dave Van Skike]

bump for a reasonable question.

[Garrett Smith]

If it ain't broke...

[Dave Van Skike]

It ain't broke....yet.
Just want to keep my brain from going stale, plus, I have some weaknesses that I will need to address at some point.

I have ridden this out with only minor tweaks for some time and a shift for several weeks might be healthy and ensure better progress overall.

I have seen this block style training advocated in many places by a lot of folks including Rob, I'm just curious if anyone with actual strength goals has implemented it succesfully... I want to know how it works adn for whom.

[Robb Wolf]

Dave-
I think One can make some pretty good progress in the strength arena doing a fairly mixed approach. Rutman's ME-black box templates of max effort work mixed with met cons being one example. I think the key is to keep the programming smart...not too much volume in the metcons. Stuff like Diane, Fran etc.


What we do with our clients is blocks of varying intensity and volume in the strength work...5x5->8x3->10x2...some wave loading...80% of our clients are bariatric/rehabs situations so this is not something that is used extensively with our clients.

So...yea, I've not messed around much with 2 weeks of strength, 2 weeks of met-cons as per Pavels recommendations.

Interesting stuff.

[Mark Fenner]

I'm not entirely convinced that met-con and density are interchangeable.

If you are sufficiently strong, weights that allow you to work met-con are going to be too small to be considered strength work. For example, what's Dan John's max front squat? 300+, right? And I think he works around 100 for Tabatas. For those of us who are mortal (like myself), we might not have such a big disparity. On the other side of the coin, you can do heavier density work that doesn't really stimulate met-con (but it will stimulate local muscular endurance and hypertrophy).

Another consideration when planning alternate, focused blocks is that strength lasts longer than muscular-endurance but they are relatively close in persistence. CV-endurance dissipates the fastest. What do you do with this? I'm not sure.

I don't remember the details of the Pavel strength/density block approach. Is this PttP?

Regards,
Mark

[Robb Wolf]

Mark-
Pavel just recomended that folks alternate between strength (PTP) and metcon/endurance (KB work) instead of mixing the stimuli...in two week blocks if I recal.

[Dave Van Skike]

I totally agree on met con vs. density.

No it's not PttP.

I'm quoting what I think is a bit of "conventional wisdom" on how to not confuse different protocols strength vs. strength endurance or power vs. GPP. (I'm simplifying whole swaths of concepts into neat packages for brevity) by alternating them in 2 to 3 week blocks of time~ specifically not a Tudor Bompa year long persiondization program built around a competitive season but a steady progression towards an overall mixed goal...say,

Deadlift X amount and a sub 3 minute Fran or some such strength endurance benchmark.

You are hitting on exactly my question though, has teh follwing protocol been used successfully? Alternate blocks of say 3-4 weeks strenght/metcon or strenght and conditioning towards a mixed set of goals such as above? or even a singel goal..such as strength.


Example 1. Lifter A has basic strength goal of increasing 1 RM in the 3 power lifts. As lifter rapildy progresses, handling the volume at higher percentages becomes increasingly difficult…Lifter needs to go back and improve conditioning to handle the now much higher workloads that are being used to stimulat eprogress.

Would a strategy of alternating between 3 to 4 weeks on a basic linear progression and 3-4 weeks of a density work be effective to raise the overall tolerance to workload? and overall conditioning as an aside?

Example 2 : Lifter B has overall strength and fitness goals of a high crossfit total but also want to address body comp issues and increase metabolic fitness. Would an effective approach be to alternate blocks of pure metcon work 3-4 weeks, with blocks of pure strength work 3-4 weeks? Is anyone using this approach effectively?

I suspect Example 1 would work, for intermediates and even moderately advanced lifters. I suspect Example 2, mixing strength and metcon, is not as effective as combining the two protocols within a given week for novice to intermediates.

Using what we know about how slowly limit strength erodes, it would seem this alternating approach could work…Teh problem is, I have read this suggested in several places, but, I haven't heard directly from anyone who has used it not any studies that bear the assumption out.

I may just have to try it to see.