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Old 07-04-2007, 04:24 PM   #11
Dave Van Skike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Winkler View Post
That there is no difference between robot legs and squat suits. My argument goes something like this:

1) If robot legs are silly, then squat suits are silly
2) Robot legs are silly
3) Therefore, squat suits are silly



The suits store up energy during the descent and allow you to bounce out of the bottom. That's why they work better for the squat and bench and don't help as much in the deadlift. What about the context in powerlifting am I missing that would help me to see why it is different than robot legs? Like I said in my original post, if I'm wrong I welcome someone to explain to me better.



I already stated in my first post that I may be missing something because of my lack of first person experience, showing that I was well aware that might be my problem. But instead of you explaining the first person experience that would be required to enlighten me, all you gave me was a grumpy response. Don't worry though, I won't hold it against you, maybe you're just having a bad day. Here's a smile to make you feel better.



Well, if my arguement is sound, hopefully everyone that likes squat suits because it would show an inconsitency in their thinking, and we should all strive to remove inconsistencies from the set of our beliefs.
you have already shown you don't understand the mindset ....you're wasting your time. the argument is reductionist to the point of absurdity......it's easier to lift a barbell loaded with 300 than a rock..hell, the squat as a competitive lift is pretty unnatural...sound like you want some ancient celtic rock lifting contest......to each his own.
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Old 07-04-2007, 05:27 PM   #12
Neal Winkler
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Well, you guys don't seem to be having very much fun discussing this. You're not elaborating on why you think you're right and just seemed to be annoyed. I guess it's just the philosopher/ass in me that enjoys arguing things that most people see as pointless.
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:31 PM   #13
Mike ODonnell
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Well I like fun and robot arms.....but why do:

Nascar drivers not just use the same exact car
Golfers just use the same type of clubs
Runners use the same shoes
Swimmers use only speedos and not those swim suits...
etc...etc...etc....

find a sport that is uniform across the board....I can't think of one....even pool players bring their own sticks....

Of course you could also take the whole performance factor up with supplements and other things.......

It's just engraved in any sport...advancement and competition through technology....thats why you see records falling in all sports....
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Old 07-04-2007, 11:22 PM   #14
Dave Van Skike
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Well, you guys don't seem to be having very much fun discussing this. You're not elaborating on why you think you're right and just seemed to be annoyed. I guess it's just the philosopher/ass in me that enjoys arguing things that most people see as pointless.
there is no "right"....there just is.

how's that for yer ....fy loss sophy?
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Old 07-05-2007, 09:47 AM   #15
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There's something to be said for using straps, but even there I'm both too lazy and a bit much of a chicken to use them. E.g. I'd rather give up on a deadlift or BOR because of lacking grip than because my back gives up.
I have this debate with a friend of mine who is a regular xfitter. When the WOD asks for max deadlifts he usually reaches failure b/c of grip failure.
I think that this is a failure to reap the benefits of the lift. Your hands are tiny compared to the muscles along the posterior chain working to get the max weight off the floor.
If you want to max out a pull, don't let the smallest muscle limit the work the biggest ones can get. If you're not ready to max out, then it's not so much an issue.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:11 AM   #16
Dave Van Skike
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I have this debate with a friend of mine who is a regular xfitter. When the WOD asks for max deadlifts he usually reaches failure b/c of grip failure.
I think that this is a failure to reap the benefits of the lift. Your hands are tiny compared to the muscles along the posterior chain working to get the max weight off the floor.
If you want to max out a pull, don't let the smallest muscle limit the work the biggest ones can get. If you're not ready to max out, then it's not so much an issue.

I have a tough time with this...Certainily in a testing environment (gym maxes etc) straps are not giving you a chance for accurate feedback on your lift. I do think straps have a place for lots of different elements of the lift like overload work, higher reps work, hi -pulls etc also think it's less stressful on CNS to pull with straps...no I have no basis in science to tell me why I think that, it just seems to work that way for me.

I have read the work of severla very, very good pullers advocating straps but these folks typically don't have grip issues. Like you said, if grip is holding you back, fix it. Personally I have only medium size paws and fairly weak grip (I can't close a #2 COC ) but have never missed a lift using the hook grip.
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Old 07-05-2007, 11:40 AM   #17
Steve Shafley
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Do not fear the big weights.

The bottom line:

To get a better total. PL equipment is a way to improve your competitive total.

That's it.

If you don't like it, lift WARISWAR style.

Obviously a lot of people love the stuff.
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Old 07-05-2007, 12:29 PM   #18
Yvana van den Hork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Alston View Post
I have this debate with a friend of mine who is a regular xfitter. When the WOD asks for max deadlifts he usually reaches failure b/c of grip failure.
I think that this is a failure to reap the benefits of the lift. Your hands are tiny compared to the muscles along the posterior chain working to get the max weight off the floor.
If you want to max out a pull, don't let the smallest muscle limit the work the biggest ones can get. If you're not ready to max out, then it's not so much an issue.
True, but sofar I'm happy enough with the results I got from using a slimmer bar (shorter too, which makes balancing even more easy). Combined with a mixed grip, this made a difference of over 20kg. Once I'm again having grip problems, I'll reconsider straps.
But I'm thinking there still is more progress possible with smarter training. Really liked wave loading for instance.

And then again, I'd probably still like practicing grip first, with your CoC grippers.
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Old 07-05-2007, 12:44 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
I have a tough time with this...Certainily in a testing environment (gym maxes etc) straps are not giving you a chance for accurate feedback on your lift. I do think straps have a place for lots of different elements of the lift like overload work, higher reps work, hi -pulls etc also think it's less stressful on CNS to pull with straps...no I have no basis in science to tell me why I think that, it just seems to work that way for me.

I have read the work of severla very, very good pullers advocating straps but these folks typically don't have grip issues. Like you said, if grip is holding you back, fix it. Personally I have only medium size paws and fairly weak grip (I can't close a #2 COC ) but have never missed a lift using the hook grip.
I am not sure what feedback you think you are missing, beyond the feedback of grip failure. Do you think that beyond what's happening at the local hand level, there is a significant form change based on being stapped(less)? I think the form challenges come from the weight's pull on the back, hams, etc.

Most people I think are stronger in the large muscles that are used in the DL than they are in the grip. It still seems to me that grip failure means your big muscles didn't get tested fully, which I think is the point of the max/near max lift.

Yes, if grip holds one back, one should fix it, but one could well never be able to "fix" this imbalance. I think for most people the summit of what they could/do get strong enough to pull will/does surpass their summit of what they can hold onto.
For me, I guess, straps are acceptable gear, just like o-lift shoes and neoprene knee sleeves (the only gear I rock, though of course never straps on the classical lifts, though yes on pull reps, like you mention).
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Old 07-05-2007, 01:29 PM   #20
Dave Van Skike
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Originally Posted by John Alston View Post
I am not sure what feedback you think you are missing, beyond the feedback of grip failure. Do you think that beyond what's happening at the local hand level, there is a significant form change based on being stapped(less)? I think the form challenges come from the weight's pull on the back, hams, etc.

Most people I think are stronger in the large muscles that are used in the DL than they are in the grip. It still seems to me that grip failure means your big muscles didn't get tested fully, which I think is the point of the max/near max lift.

Yes, if grip holds one back, one should fix it, but one could well never be able to "fix" this imbalance. I think for most people the summit of what they could/do get strong enough to pull will/does surpass their summit of what they can hold onto.
For me, I guess, straps are acceptable gear, just like o-lift shoes and neoprene knee sleeves (the only gear I rock, though of course never straps on the classical lifts, though yes on pull reps, like you mention).
The feedback I was thinking of was the feedback of failing the lift... As always, the answer is...it depends on your goals. I totally agree that straps are a legit training tool like a belt or sleeves or lifting shoes...used intelligently in that context, these tools can allows you to see the maximum payback from your work. (except sleeves, these are just nice. I have so much cash sunk into my knees that I wear sleeves even though I can't say what exactly they do, they don't help my squat any but they do feel good.)

If you are using the DL as way to build your pull for other competitive or personal benchmark lifts (like the OL lifts) then it would totally makes sense to use straps to increase the load or the reps. On that, I think we essentially agree.

If you are lifting the DL to lift the DL (this is the case for me) then some deadlifting work will have to be done sans straps even if it is maxes only.... but again, it depends on who and where you are in your training. I'm a relative novice and my DL is not very high so I can tax myself plenty without straps, so I rarely use them when doing DL….I do use them for snatch grip DL and for rack pulls. There are indispensable for these assistance lifts.

I do think that ultimately with limit level deadlifts, the grip thing can be fixed for a lot of people with "normal" sized hands. From competitive lifters to the weekend warrior, grip does not have to be the limiting factor for maxes….. but you have to be willing to make it a priority...if the deadlift is an important lift for you, you'll train it. If the DL is not an end in itself but a component of a program, and grip is preventing you from seeing a benefit from the lift, then strap up by all means.....

Which gets back to the original thread topic, moralizing about whether certain types of gear are right or wrong.....there is no right or wrong on this stuff, just effective and ineffective for your individual purposes....Showing up to a geared meet and lifting raw may be effective for your sense of personal integrity, but not effective for winning under those rules. For me, it works best to be clear on what my goals are not bother judging folks who have different goals.
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