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Old 07-09-2007, 06:49 AM   #11
Steve Shafley
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I've been vacationing for 10 days or so.

I'd be interested in knowing the backgrounds of the winners of the XF games. Russ pointed out that the first day's events trashed him. I've found that people whom haven't had to maintain performance levels for multi-day events generally don't develop that kind of physical resiliency and mental toughness they need for those sorts of situations. It's very specific and hard to develop unless you are aware of the need. I bet the next XF games will be even more competitive.

For me, playing multi-day rugby tournaments and going on rugby tours introduced me to those concepts, and it was rough going intially. Multi-day tournaments in high school wrestling also were instrumental in teaching those lessons.
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Old 07-09-2007, 06:56 AM   #12
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Looking at the results: Cool stuff. You'll definitely improve next time, Russ. Grueling but fun weekend, it looks like.
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Old 07-09-2007, 07:32 AM   #13
Robb Wolf
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Russ-
FANTASTIC post.
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Old 07-09-2007, 11:33 AM   #14
James R. Climer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb Wolf View Post
Russ-
FANTASTIC post.
I second that, and rank it up there
with Eugene's tome on the CF Certifications.

That post cranked out clarity. It answered
questions floating around in my cluttered
brain box I hadn't even put into words yet.

In some way, it should make its way into
a journal or something.
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Old 07-09-2007, 04:21 PM   #15
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonas Lind View Post
Steven - By fatigue management, I guess you mean not working to failure?
Yes and no. Failure *can* be used (VERY sparingly) with a high frequency routine, but the general gist of it is maintaining is so that you are not exhausting the muscles to the point where they can recover enough day after day of work. Generally, the volume needs to be low if you're just starting, but when you build up to it by increasing your conditioning levels you will gain strength very fast. For example, any elite athletes in any sports like gymnastics, weightlifting, etc. are training 5-6 times a week and get insanely strong because their fatigue is managed to the point where they can workout everyday but they are stressing their muscles enough to force constant adaptations.

----------------------

Nice post Russ.

Technical proficiency is definitely a big key. I can kick the crap out of a lot of people in kipping pullups and muscle ups even though I don't do a lot of them and am not as strong as a lot of others because I have the body awareness and technical knowledge of how these lifts work. It would seem then that this should relate throughout all aspects of CF as well because there is technique in pretty much every single movement.

I do think you deemphasized strength a bit much though. It does help immensely to have a high level of strength though as conditioning can be gained much easier than strength.
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Old 07-10-2007, 07:50 PM   #16
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This is a nice old post from CF:
http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/21/428.html

Interesting how few of these people talk to each other any more...

I don't have time to launch into this much right now but I want to mention the results we had with Glen Cordoza:
initial fight gone bad 276
6 weeks of DL, Weighted pull up and weighted dip AND fight training (thai boxing, jits etc)
Result: fight gone bad:368
No CrossFit WOD's...but obviously varied functional training...just very interesting to me especially in light of Russ's post.
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:16 PM   #17
Dave Van Skike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb Wolf View Post
This is a nice old post from CF:
http://www.crossfit.com/discus/messages/21/428.html

Interesting how few of these people talk to each other any more...

I don't have time to launch into this much right now but I want to mention the results we had with Glen Cordoza:
initial fight gone bad 276
6 weeks of DL, Weighted pull up and weighted dip AND fight training (thai boxing, jits etc)
Result: fight gone bad:368
No CrossFit WOD's...but obviously varied functional training...just very interesting to me especially in light of Russ's post.
nice add.

FWIW, just perused the crossfit main page reviewed latest vid from glassman...got to say, (and this is coming from an admitted non-crossfitter and deep koolaid skeptic)....very compelling case to be made for this Brand of varied "functional" fitness. It's the best packaging of the func. fitness meme out there. Need more people stripping the hype and politics off it and putting it out there for what it is....Uber GPP, and damn good shit at that.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:17 PM   #18
Russell Greene
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I was not downplaying strength as a quality. I love strength. If strength was free, I would want every athlete to come into Crossfit with a 1000 lb. deadlift. Unfortunately, an exclusive focus on strength training has a high opportunity cost for GPP training, especially for people who can't afford to just not train endurance for months on end.

The argument for focusing on strength before GPP usually gives the example of a strength athlete coming into Crossfit and being able to do very well much faster than normal people. I think Robb has used Natalie Woolfolk, who has a gymnastics background and is a kick ass weightlifter, as an example. Not that he was saying this directly, but comparing Natalie's results after 6 months of Crossfit with an untrained person's results after 6 months is unfair. You are effectively comparing the results of, say a dozen years of training for Natalie with 6 months of Crossfit training for the untrained person.

Obviously we would all want every athlete to come in at 18 years old having spent their childhood doing gymnastics, weightlifting, and 400m sprints. But that doesn't necessarily mean that people who are aiming to maximize GPP need to first go on extensive powerlifting or weightlifting or gymnastics programs. I don't think that's necessary, or even advisable, especially given the amount of Crossfit athletes who have forgone such an approach and nevertheless gone on to reach extraordinary levels of power output.

Now, if the next batch of top Crossfitters turns out to be powerlifters who do Crossfit a few days a week in the off-season and crank out 2 minute Frans with 135 lb. thrusters and weighted vest pullups, I will be forced to reevaluate my position.

From a personal perspective, I actually prefer structured lifting programs. They allow me to manage fatigue more effectively, and allow me to see regular progress on the same few lifts, which is nice. But my results as a long term Crossfitter are nothing special.

Robb, I really liked that Cardoza article. It emphasized the point that if Crossfit is Functional, Intense, and Varied, then MMA training is Crossfit. If we use the Technical Proficiency + Intensity + Diet equation, the martial arts training provided the intensity and the strength work, especially the deadlifts, provided the technical proficiency. In other words, deadlifts teach you how to lift stuff, with direct transfer to the power and efficiency of push presses, wall balls, sdhp's, box jumps, and rowing, and the MMA stuff trains the energy systems required for FGB, and the combination yields an impressive result.

When I first came into Crossfit years ago I was extremely puzzled by how Kelly Moore who was so much fitter than I was in every other category, was struggling to run one 7:30 mile, whereas I could run 7 minute miles in my sleep. I first thought that it was due to our different body types, but then I thought of many shorter people who were great distance runners. I then came to the conclusion that it was mostly neurological training. Kelly had awesome strength, power, speed, and endurance in fields where she had extensive training and thus was neurologically efficient, and running just wasn't one of those fields, whereas I had been running all over the place since I started soccer in kindergarten. Allen Yeh is another good example. Here's a guy who is in great gym shape, but just did not run much when he was younger, and thus is having a hell of a time making running come easily to him now.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:32 AM   #19
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Dave-
I've said this previously...and no matter what Pat O'shea has done regarding Interval Weight Training or other similar approaches I think what Coach Glassman has formalized is GENIUS. Devany has some similar observations regarding training and functionality, arrived at by completely different means and I find that hugely compelling.

We are training a new batch of trainers and I can not describe how many concepts I try to impart to these trainers that are a direct outgrowth of what I've learned from CF. Core to extremity, universal motor recruitment, broad inclusive fitness...core training is DL's, body rows and push-ups not crunches.

When Glassman talks about Fitness it reminds me of when Cordain talks about nutritional sciences...the level of sophistication and foundational understanding makes most of the folks in their respective fields just scratch thier heads...most of this stuff (exercise/nutritional science) is still floundering in the study/taxonomy stage. Conduct an experiment, name some stuff....with no underlying theory to tie things together and make sense. That's my take on that anyway, I know others do not see it that way.

Russ-

The Natalie Wolfolk thing perfectly illustrates my point here. You either come to the game with strength or you make the strength but you need to get relatively strong to turn good numbers on the WOD's, or most things I give a damn about. If 135lbs is a heavy-ish front squat a 95lb thruster is going to be a crusher. Coach Glassman alluded to this in the "Messing Around With Fran" CFJ. Further adaptation lies in the movement of additional load, possibly at the expense of average power output for THAT WO, not necessarily in greater power output in a given WO.


I think it's important to give a full accounting of these methods and progressions. What Brendan shared with you is SUPER important and is not talked about enough in the larger CF context IMO. CrossFit, OL, PL and gymnastics can all be tools...means to an end or the END...the goal. It's important to know which way one is approaching this.

So what is the best method for making progress here? Concurrent, Conjugate, block? I'm still not sure but I do think that if the individual is stronger they have the potential to perform better.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:51 AM   #20
Dave Van Skike
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Robb and Russ

Thanks for your thoughts on this.....I think Cordain and Glassman are good examples in this discussion becaase both seem to have redefined the overall question of "fitness" and "nutrition" from a systemic and/or ecological point of view as opposed to an example based or expiremental point of view: Athlete A is fit for sport B, eats food C and therefore we know..X..about "fitness"

That is the genius at work, (I'll even give that nutter DeVany credit for this)... panning far enough back to truly view the question of fitness in context.
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