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Old 08-08-2007, 03:52 PM   #1
Jordan Glasser
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I have been playing around with paleo/IF. I have remained strict paleo for over 4 months, minus the odd night of drinking. (For some reason sobriety is frowned upon at the bars...) So, after using a food log for about a week (all of it on this forum, with some of it more detailed on http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/PublicJ...ner=jordache23) I have found some road blocks in the way that I get my calories.

Here are my issues:
I need alot of cals from fats, around 2000 kcals (depending on how many carbs I'm eating). I have trouble with this.
1- the source. Everytime I eat too much of the following my digestion goes out of whack- egg yolks, nuts (almonds & macadamias), avocados. Without those sources I am cornered into drinking olive oil, and coconut oil. Any other suggestions?
2-the amount. I feel that keeping my carbs low is nice in many ways, but when my carbs are 100g/day, I am getting close to needing 3000 kcals from fats in order to feel good and energetic for my metcons (If I don't, my energy levels suck, along with my workouts). Personally, when thinking of hunter gatherer, they would never have to seek out this many fats. It doesn't seem all that natural. Even at 2000 kcals.

When looking at my diet objectively I have to question 2 things.
1- protein requirements?
2- Carb requirements?

To address the first. Too much protein has never given me good results physically. (at least digestion has never been an issue.) Too little leaves me hungry after every meal. Finding the middle ground seems easy, but now I am questioning if that it is right. Values would be 150g on the low side, 200g plus on the high side. (16-22 blocks).

Carb requirements. I have found that a day of "catching up" on carbs helps my energy levels. Too much daily, and I add body fat, instantly! (is this a good sign? Is this a result of a high insulin sensitivity?) So again, I try and settle in the middle.

Historically i grew up on carbs, my favorite food was bread. And my mom to this day lives off of starchy foods! Luckily, without her knowing, she eats once a day, an accidental IF protocol that has kept her healthy. It amazes doctors, but no one on this forum I am sure.....

thanks in advance,

Jordan
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:03 PM   #2
Greg Battaglia
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How long have you been utilizing the high fat approach? If you just began it is possible that your liver hasn't had the opportunity to manufacture the proper enzymes required to burn fatty acids as a consistent fuel source. Why do you think it is unnatural that H/G's ate so much fat? When you actually strip a wild animal of all it's fats after a catch it's possible to yield a very large amount of animal fat. Also, you don't seem to be consuming much animal fat other than egg yolks. Try getting some animal fat from grass-fed butter, grass-fed meat, and other sources of clean animal fat, but definitely not grain-fed animals. Saturated fat is like jet fuel compared to plant fats. You should also consider that maybe such a high fat intake is not suitable for your personal metabolism. Have you tried the zone, gradually switching to the athletes zone? This is one instance where i think you might simply be out of touch with your metabolism and could use some guidance from the zone.
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:13 PM   #3
Mike ODonnell
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Originally Posted by Jordan Glasser View Post
Carb requirements. I have found that a day of "catching up" on carbs helps my energy levels. Too much daily, and I add body fat, instantly! (is this a good sign? Is this a result of a high insulin sensitivity?) So again, I try and settle in the middle.
Sounds like insulin resistance...you want insulin sensitivity. It's still all about the calories of the day....but lower carbs are needed to help turn around the resistance issue.

Everyone is different...some perform better on mod carbs...some low carb...it's individual to your cells. You can try carb up cycles....low for 3-4 days and carb up (which means you have to lower the fats on those days) for a day. Repeat. Or like I do is the 5 day low carb/weekend carb flexibile.....and vary my levels depending on what my weekend workload requirements are....ex) playing ice hockey, mountain biking or floating on a raft in the pool.

At some point you will have spillover from carbs into fat...you have to find your point. Also the longer you starve you muscles of glycogen....the more likely they will soak it up like a sponge when it is introduced...hence...they become more "sensitive". You may just want to add some carbs pwo...like 20-30g extra...don't go overboard until you can fine tune your spillover point. A good coach would see how you react to a certain protocol and then make adjustments as neccessary every few weeks...it's up to you to make those adjustments, try new things as your body will constantly vary from this point on. As you increase insulin sensitivity, the more pwo carbs you may be able to tollerate...and less carbs you need the rest of the day....etc...etc.
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:04 AM   #4
Jordan Glasser
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Insightful to say the least.
A bit more history.....I starting the zone over a year and a half ago. Progressed to the athletes zone. The zone is kinda funny, cause you either have trouble getting the amount of carbs in, when you make the right choices (ie, volume)....but when you make the wrong choices, it's way too easy to go overboard. So, I went back and forth. I picked low GI sources, and when stay under my alloted carb blocks, or I used legumes and grains, and went to my limit, if not beyond.
As my fat blocks increased (athletes zone), 3 almonds turned to 36. And yeah, I know my enzymes weren't up to par to digest. I supplemented them to help, but, without much results.
So basically I had pretty good results on the zone, but, it wasn't perfect. Once I needed to switch to the athletes zone and needed more fat, that's where the honeymoon seemed to end.

I would think that after a year and a half of eating well, my insulin sensitivity would be high. Especially since my paleo/IF approach for over 4 months. I've read protein power, and light's out. It's freakin' hard to eat non-seasonally, or god forbid any sugar. I am labeled as crazy (Although that's reassuring) because my friends know that I decline most food or drinks because they are not paleo, or I am fasting......But I digress....

I have great respect for both you guys, I have read this forum cover to cover, as well as most of the CF. (Although not lately, all the info I need is right here!) I think that I have pushed my diet into how I want my body to be, which in this case is a fat burner.....but all the signs point elsewhere. I guess sometimes you have to see it to believe it. I am starting to see it, So..... I will try to listen closely to what you guys have said, and wait to here what the rest of the community may have to offer.

thanks again,
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Old 08-09-2007, 04:18 AM   #5
Allen Yeh
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What is your bodyweight? What is your lean body mass? Height? Activity level? Goals?


I have never tried straight up coconut oil but the coconut milk I get from Trader Joes is 25 grams of fat a can with trace carbs and protien. When I throw it together with some cocoa powder, ground flax, berries, 2 scoops protein powder and/or natural nut butter it usually totals around 1000 cals mostly from protein and fats.

Not sure how strict you are on the Paleo side as I'm not following that but another source I've had good success with is the heavy cream they suggested in Lights Out, with my coffee. I'll throw in 3 tbsp's per cup and weekdays I'll drink 1-2 cups of coffee a day. 1 tbsp = 5 grams of fat.

In regards to what you already use, I've done this in the past is to make a huge thing of guacomole and I'll throw them on 6-8 scrambled eggs which I found to be tasty.
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:00 AM   #6
Mike ODonnell
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Jordan I may suggest that you may not need as many calories as you think you do? If you are looking to lose fat, keep muscle...then you may not need 3000 (if you are not losing weight, go to the old failsafe of reducing the daily calories...as that is where the heart of it is)...in fact one of the many great things of IF is that you need less calories than if you ate all day long.


Quote:
So basically I had pretty good results on the zone, but, it wasn't perfect. Once I needed to switch to the athletes zone and needed more fat, that's where the honeymoon seemed to end.
Remember that a true "zone" approach, not athletes zone, is very low calories. Try cutting down the fat intake as you mentioned you were doing great on regular zone but stopped seeing progress once you did the 2-3x athletic zone, keep you protein hovering around 1gram/lean mass, play with cycling carbs weekly and timing pwo.....at some point you will see what works best. If your fats go up, carbs go down..and visa vera...it's still about total calories and fats give you some pretty quick and alot of packed calories...so overdoing them can surely keep you from losing weight. You have to eat for your energy needs....a 20 min metcon and desk job is quite differently from say 2 hours of MMA style training and working construction...if you are saying that you are bonking during a short intense workout, then it sounds just more lack of having muscle glycogen than total calories.

Don't worry....we all go through it and some keep trying new and new things to see how the body reacts. In the end you will find what works best for your lifestyle needs and goals. Also...you can still have a life...go out on weekends and enjoy some food...no need to get 100% obsessed about it.
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:32 AM   #7
Robb Wolf
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Great advices thus far and i think MOD nailed it. 3K cals is a lot and if one is eating paleo/zone one needs to be at a VERY high work output to warrant that intake.
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Old 08-09-2007, 08:05 AM   #8
Mike ODonnell
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Originally Posted by Robb Wolf View Post
Great advices thus far and i think MOD nailed it. 3K cals is a lot and if one is eating paleo/zone one needs to be at a VERY high work output to warrant that intake.
I think Robb nailed it there.....

Just throwing some numbers out there...most guys on the standard Zone diet are taking in @1500-1600 calories (women like 800-1000). So you can see where 3000 can be overkill....I don't need more than 2200 personally to maintain....go down to 1800-1500 to cut...and go up 3000+ to gain....but again, will depend on my daily expenditure and planned workouts too....Get the protein in, "some" healthy fats and cycle the carbs. That and find your love affair with coffee/expressos....man they help during the low phases.
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:14 AM   #9
Troy Archie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
Sounds like insulin resistance
Just curious as to how you came to this conclusion, I would have guessed he would have be insulin sensitive....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Battaglia View Post
Saturated fat is like jet fuel compared to plant fats.
In what way? Again dumb curiosity. Is that just saturated animal fats or does it include saturated fats from nuts, coconut milk and the like?
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Old 08-09-2007, 09:36 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Troy Archie View Post
Just curious as to how you came to this conclusion, I would have guessed he would have be insulin sensitive....
Good questions....I guess it depends on your definition of what insulin sensitivity is...for example is it:
a) increased sensitivity of muscle cells to use glucose with less insulin (aka it gets sucked into the muscle)
b) increased sensitivity of converting glucose into fat

I was going with A, as the more sensitive your cells are...the less insulin you will need...and with high amounts of insulin that usually results in more fat gain....hence the term insulin resistance, your body needs to pump out more. I call B "carb sensitivity", as your body easily converts carbs into fat....Usually Carb sensitivity and Insulin Resistance go hand in hand...one goes up, so does the other....as you become more carb resistant (able to handle them) you usually are more insulin sensitive...


I also found this little handy quote
Quote:
Insulin resistance is the condition in which normal amounts of insulin are inadequate to produce a normal insulin response from fat, muscle and liver cells. Insulin resistance in fat cells results in hydrolysis of stored triglycerides, which elevates free fatty acids in the blood plasma. Insulin resistance in muscle reduces glucose uptake whereas insulin resistance in liver reduces glucose storage, with both effects serving to elevate blood glucose. High plasma levels of insulin and glucose due to insulin resistance often lead to metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes.
It all get's so confusing...but when in doubt....less insulin good....more insulin bad....caveman health logic works every time.
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