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Old 08-14-2007, 03:27 PM   #11
Mike ODonnell
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For anyone that actually wants to go through this thread....have fun

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...587831&page=46
Alan echos his same comments about IF on there as well as it was started by the leangains guy to get people excited about IF and his book......I think by the end it just turned into name calling...but probably some good entertainment and/or discussion in there somewhere....

Even Dr Eades jumped in talking to Fred Hahn...which pretty much answers the whole paranoia of losing muscle...
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Hi Fred–

I don’t think IF would affect muscle mass much at all. If you go without food for a long period of time, say, several days, your metabolic system goes after your muscle mass to convert the protein stored there into the glucose you need to keep your blood glucose normal. This doesn’t happen in the short term. All the protein structures in the body draw from and add to the amino acid pool. When muscle breaks down the individual amino acids go into the pool from where they’re harvested by the system that converts them to glucose. When new muscle is made, the amino acids used to construct the muscle protein are drawn from the amino acid pool. One of the contributors to the AA pool is enzymes that are no longer needed and junk proteins that the body is cleansing from the cells. When one is fasting, one of the group of enzymes not really needed is the group of digestive enzymes that would otherwise be employed in digesting food. These enzymes break down and their amino acids enter the AA pool where the muscle can pick them up as needed. Also, during an IF, the body goes into ketosis. I posted a few months back on how ketosis stimulates the process of cellular cleansing by removing junk proteins from the cells. The amino acids from these proteins also enter the AA pool where they can be recycled by the muscle mass. So, even though new protein isn’t coming into the body minute by minute from the diet, there is plenty of substrate there in the AA pool to last until the next meal, which is, at most, only 24 hours away.

Second, although many of these studies were done using unhealthy subjects, a number were performed on people, both healthy and unhealthy, who were fasting for religious reasons. In all cases all healthy parameters evaluated improved.

Best–

Mike
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Old 08-15-2007, 09:59 PM   #12
Shannon Clark
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Originally Posted by Eric Jones View Post
I must also concur. I feel my best and try to train in a fasted state. In a fed state all I want to do is lay down. It makes total sense in a way of partitioning activation of sympathetic/parasympathetic nervous systems. I feel like I just had a Red Bull all day when fasted. I rarely get somatic hunger, even 8-10 hours into a fast too. I am down 3% body fat at the same weight (163lbs) after I started dabbling in IF about 2 months ago. No other significant changes in training.

This is all unequivocal. I was measured pre/post by hydrostatic weighing and Bod Pod. I used to take naps during the day but no longer need or want to. Bottom line is I am better off since I adopted an approximate 6 hour feeding window on most (5 of 7) days.
I'm just curious, what kind of volume are you doing in your fasted workouts? And what % of total carb intake are you taking for the day in the eating window?
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Old 08-16-2007, 11:05 AM   #13
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Great question. 2-3 Strength sessions per week and 2-3 CrossFit-style metcon, gymnastics, or kettlebell workouts per week. For the Strength sessions, typical Starting Strength stuff. 3-5 lifts, 3 core (squat or variation, deadlift, press variation, pendlay row, or weighted chin or dip) and some O-lifts or assistance exercises. 3-7 sets per exercise, 3-5 reps per set. About 21-25 total rep volume per exercise. Conditioning workouts; one grinder of a WOD (like the CrossFit Games WOD, 23.01 btw, just did it and it sucks) or two "girls" or a kettlebell-only WOD, or gymnastics practice, or sprint practice, or a combination of all of those. My strength and times in the WODs continue to progress.

As far as %CHO intake...I have no idea. I imagine I hold close to an 18-20 block Zone. I stopped measuring awhile ago. I eat very close to a strict Paleo for Athletes diet. Lots of big salads with veggies and lean meats. Lots of poultry. At least 4 whole fruits (about 8 blocks worth). If I were to educated guess it...probably between 30-40%CHO on strict days and about 60%CHO on cheat days.

Does that help?
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Old 08-16-2007, 10:36 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Eric Jones View Post
Great question. 2-3 Strength sessions per week and 2-3 CrossFit-style metcon, gymnastics, or kettlebell workouts per week. For the Strength sessions, typical Starting Strength stuff. 3-5 lifts, 3 core (squat or variation, deadlift, press variation, pendlay row, or weighted chin or dip) and some O-lifts or assistance exercises. 3-7 sets per exercise, 3-5 reps per set. About 21-25 total rep volume per exercise. Conditioning workouts; one grinder of a WOD (like the CrossFit Games WOD, 23.01 btw, just did it and it sucks) or two "girls" or a kettlebell-only WOD, or gymnastics practice, or sprint practice, or a combination of all of those. My strength and times in the WODs continue to progress.

As far as %CHO intake...I have no idea. I imagine I hold close to an 18-20 block Zone. I stopped measuring awhile ago. I eat very close to a strict Paleo for Athletes diet. Lots of big salads with veggies and lean meats. Lots of poultry. At least 4 whole fruits (about 8 blocks worth). If I were to educated guess it...probably between 30-40%CHO on strict days and about 60%CHO on cheat days.

Does that help?

For sure, that definitely helps. I was just interested because as I bring my carbs lower I've just been trying to get a feel for how my workout volume should change to correspond. I have done probably too much volume in the past so it likely needs to be brought down to make sure I don't start overdoing things.

I think in my earlier years I tried to justify eating more carbs by just working out more...which likely wasn't the smartest. Damn that oatmeal is too good. But I'm moving more towards a Paleo direction with carb food choices and so far I'm feeling much better.
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Old 08-26-2007, 12:41 PM   #15
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Checking out some stuff on IronOnline led me back here, with some comments that the author of the Fast-5 protocol had on Alan Aragon's piece:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/fast5/message/723

Quote:
Although this piece is referenced, it has little integrity and exhibits lots of bias. For example, the author references #15 and 16 as examples of increased hunger when eating "a single meal." Those studies actually looked at the difference between breakfast served as one portion or spread over five,evenly spaced portions, after which the subjects ate lunch. The studies only looked at people over the course of 5.5 hours on 2 days. (One day they ate one way, the other day, the other way.) When the men in the study ate the breakfast in divided portions, they ate less lunch. (#15 studied lean males, #16 studied obese males).

References 17 and 18 are cited, saying basically that every-other-day fasting and once-a-day eating are impractical because people may not like it. The author does not include, for example, that in reference 18, the people in the study lost 4% of their fat mass in 22 days, their fat metabolism went up by 6 grams per day, and their resting metabolic rate, despite all "everyone" says about it dropping with fasting, did not change from baseline.

Reference 19 is an interpretation of other studies funded in part by the Breakfast Advisory Board, which is an agency of the State of Florida Department of Citrus. The Breakfast Advisory Board is now called the American Breakfast Council, even though it's an agency of the State of Florida created to promote orange juice sales. (link).Another of the authors on the same paper, Judi Adams, is president of the Grain Foods Foundation and at the time was president of the Wheat Foods Council. It's no surprise that this interpretation of other studies came out "pro-breakfast."

Mr. Aragon spends a lot of time describing how hunger increases with decreasing meals, but disregards (a) that he's looking at a comparison of >3 meals a day to 3 meals a day and (b) his own statement that "hunger disappears" with fasting (which he calls "complete starvation" and then says it "is irrelevant.")

The next study he quotes (23) refers to people eating six meals a day. I don't see the meaning in including data from a six-meal-a-day study as evidence for or against intermittent fasting.

Mr. Aragon continues, saying reference 24 argues in favor of a post-fast breakfast. My reading of the article doesn't agree -- Layman is favoring more protein in breakfast for those who are eating breakfast and attempting to lose weight. Coincidentally, Layman's work was funded by Kraft Foods, the Cattlemen's Beef Board, and the National Cattlemen's Beef Association.

I could go on, but Aragon's article just isn't worth the time. It is a difficult endeavor to pick apart these sorts of scholarly-looking articles, and it takes a lot of time. When you do, you may come to a completely different conclusion than the author. There are parts of Aragon's article I agree with: "Intermittent Fasting Human Research Interesting But Inconclusive." That is, we don't know all we need to know about it.

More study should be done on IF, and on longer-term studies than anything that's been done so far. Part of the problem is that much of the data describing fasting means a prolonged fast -- going without food for three or more days done as one single stretch, one single change interrupting a well-established pattern. IF is an established pattern and relies on adaptations over two months or more, so until we start studying people who are adapted to one form or another, we're not seeing the real changes that can happen.

The abundance of misinformation and misguided interpretation means one should be skeptical of ALL nutritional advice (including mine), and especially those who are trying to sell something. The best judge you have is your own body. If somebody's happy doing what they're doing, I see no reason for them to change to Fast-5 or IF or anything. If they're not, Fast-5 or some other variation of IF may be the tool they need to get where they want to be. As Aragon's reference #17 says,

"Although the consumption of 3 meals/d [per day] is the most common pattern of eating in industrialized countries, a scientific rationale for this meal frequency with respect to optimal health is lacking."

If you have any questions about other parts or statements in this article, please let me know and I'll add more detail.

Best wishes,

Bert

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Old 08-26-2007, 12:52 PM   #16
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Alan's rebuttal:

http://alanaragon.com/pickled-red-herring
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Old 08-26-2007, 02:11 PM   #17
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Bert Herring did come across looking like a nitwit. I have to give that one to AA.
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Old 08-26-2007, 03:51 PM   #18
Mike ODonnell
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Let them debate....fun to hear both sides of the stories...but in the end, I know what is working for me.
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:41 PM   #19
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Bert Herring did come across looking like a nitwit. I have to give that one to AA.
I'm curious why you think that. Reading and rereading AA's IF review, I couldn't help getting the impression that here was a guy who hasn't extended his own normal overnight fast to something greater than 15 hrs for at least a couple of months, but has carefully cherrypicked the available IF studies to give the impression that the research into IF as a pro health/bodycomp dietary approach was solid and inconclusive, rather than it being sparse, short term and not very well designed.

Seems like he has some kind of personal doubts about IF and set about reinforcing his own preconceptions in a fairly 'scholarly' way. Maybe he should actually do it for a couple of months himself. It just sounds so like the anti low carb 'literature' from a few years ago.

Bert Herring was only pointing this out. Why do you think he came across as a nitwit Scott ?

Stuart.
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Old 08-27-2007, 01:04 PM   #20
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Uhhh...Alan is the one reaching here. I was tempted to go through and check the references against what he wrote but, like Herring said, that is a long painful process.

AA starts using the same tone and pacing the vegetarian docs use when they debate Eades and Cordain: The Emotional Looser.

This is nice:
"Last time I checked, Amazon and Barnes & Noble aren't giving hard copies of his book away for free."

No...They are not but the Doc IS giving the whole shooting match away:

http://www.fast-5.com/Fast-5-ebook100.pdf

I hope AA keeps it up...he will look even more the ass.
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