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Old 11-16-2007, 04:35 PM   #31
Jared Buffie
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 59
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Brad,

The point of the graphs is that vaccine advocates say things like "you need to get your shots because vaccines are miracle drugs that eradicated all diseases", when it's plain to see they have not. I do not have the incidence numbers, but that is tying into another point that hasn't been covered here:

Since when is it so bad to get the chicken pox or the measles? What used to happen is that as children were exposed to these benign diseases, their immune systems got a "workout" so to speak, and it was part of it's natural maturing process. Now there are over 70 immunizations given by age six - and look what we've traded measles, mups, and chicken pox for:

1 in 150 kids is autistic
1/2 of all 6 months old have eczema
1 in 15 kids have a severe peanut allergy
1/2 of kids have either asthma or hay fever

Every year they add a new shot, childhood cancer rises 3%. What do these conditions have in common? They are all immune system related. There was an interesting article in Newsweek last week about peanut allergies - basically they are blaming it on the fact that our kids are no longer able to handle germs because of the sterile environment we live in and the vaccines (of course their answer, though is a peanut vaccine!).

On top of that, most outbreaks occur in vaccinated populations.

Didn't really answer you question, but anyways....
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:28 PM   #32
Scott Clark
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Great stuff Jared.
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Old 11-18-2007, 08:00 PM   #33
Yael Grauer
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Posts: 1,590
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some interesting articles:

http://canadianpress.google.com/arti...eqM5j_NRr3M8e3
http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/al...RD3B98xoTIGEJA

and this:

* * * PRESS RELEASE * * *


October 1, 2007

Ojai, CA -- On January 29, 2001, Jock Doubleday offered
$20,000 to the first U.S.-licensed medical doctor or pharmaceutical
company CEO to publicly drink a mixture of standard vaccine
additive ingredients:

http://www.mercola.com/2001/feb/10/vaccine_offer.htm

The offer had no takers.

On August 1, 2006, Doubleday increased the $20,000 offer to
$75,000:

http://www.vaclib.org/links/jockslinks.htm#press

The new $75,000 offer had no takers.

THEREFORE . . .

On June 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $80,000.
On July 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $85,000.
On August 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $90,000.
On September 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $95,000.
On October 1, 2007, the offer was increased to $100,000.

The offer will increase $5,000 per month, in perpetuity, until an
M.D. or pharmaceutical company CEO, or any of the 14 relevant
members of the ACIP (see below), agree to drink a body-weight
calibrated dose of the poisonous vaccine additives that M.D.s
routinely inject into children in the name of health.

As of November 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $105,000.
As of December 1, 2007, the offer will increase to $110,000.
As of January 1, 2008, the offer will increase to $115,000. . . . etc.

This offer has no expiration date unless superceded by a similar
offer of higher remuneration.

In health,

Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html


----------

[Letter sent out August 1, 2006]

To Whom it May Concern:

As of August 1, 2006, I have increased the reward from $20,000 to
$75,000 for the public drinking of the vaccine additives mixture.

Please see the full text of the offer below ("PRESS RELEASE").

The original $20,000 Vaccine Offer was made January 29, 2001.
Since that time, 14 doctors, or persons claiming to be doctors, have
contacted me about publicly drinking the vaccine additives mixture.

None has followed through.

Regarding the new $75,000 Vaccine Offer, please note that I have
added to the list of potential candidates the 14 relevant members of
the CDC's 2006 Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices
(ACIP), as follows:

Jon S. Abramson, M.D. (Chair)
Ban Mishu Allos, M.D.
Carol Baker, M.D.
Janet R. Gilsdorf, M.D.
Harry Hull, M.D.
Susan Lett, M.D.
Tracy Lieu, M.D.
Dale L. Morse, M.D.
Julia Morita, M.D.
Kathleen Neuzil, M.D.
Patricia Stinchfield, N.P.
Ciro Valent Sumaya, M.D.
John J. Treanor, M.D.
Robin J. Womeodu, M.D.

In health,

Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html

Jock Doubleday is the author of
"Spontaneous Creation:
101 Reasons Not to Have Your Baby in a Hospital, Vol 1:
A Book about Natural Childbirth and the Birth of Wisdom and
Power in Childbearing Women"

---------


* * * PRESS RELEASE * * *

August 1, 2006

$75,000 VACCINE OFFER

THE FOLLOWING OFFER is made to U.S.-licensed medical doctors
who routinely administer childhood vaccines and to pharmaceutical
company CEOs worldwide:

Jock Doubleday, director of the California 501(c)3 nonprofit
corporation Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc., hereby offers
$75,000.00 to the first medical doctor or pharmaceutical company
CEO who publicly drinks a mixture of standard vaccine additives
ingredients in the same amount as a six-year-old child is recommended
to receive under the year-2005 guidelines of the U.S. Centers for
Disease Control and Prevention. (In the event that thimerosal has
recently been removed from a particular vaccine, the thimerosal-
containing version of that vaccine will be used.)

The mixture will not contain viruses or bacteria dead or alive, but
will contain standard vaccine additive ingredients in their usual
forms and proportions. The mixture will include, but will not be
limited to, the following ingredients: thimerosal (a mercury
derivative), ethylene glycol (antifreeze), phenol (a disinfectant
dye), benzethonium chloride (a disinfectant), formaldehyde (a
preservative and disinfectant), and aluminum.

The mixture will be prepared by Jock Doubleday, three medical
professionals that he names, and three medical professionals that
the participant names.

The mixture will be body weight calibrated.

Because the participant is either a professional caregiver who
routinely administers childhood vaccines, or a pharmaceutical
company CEO whose business is, in part, the sale of childhood
vaccines, it is understood by all parties that the participant
considers all vaccine additive ingredients to be safe and that the
participant considers any mixture containing these ingredients to be safe.

The participant agrees, and any and all agents and associates of the
participant agree, to indemnify and hold harmless in perpetuity any
and all persons, organizations, and/or entities associated with the
event for any harm caused, or alleged to be caused, directly or
indirectly, to the participant or indirectly to the participant's
heirs, relations, employers, employees, colleagues, associates, or
other persons, organizations, or entities claiming association with,
or representation of, the participant, by the participant's
participation in the event.

The event will be held within six months of the participant's written
agreement to the above and further elaborated terms.

To the list of potential candidates for the $75,000 Vaccine Offer, 14
members of the CDC's 2006 Advisory Committee on Immunization
Practices (ACIP) have been added, as follows:

Jon S. Abramson, M.D.
Ban Mishu Allos, M.D.
Carol Baker, M.D.
Janet R. Gilsdorf, M.D.
Harry Hull, M.D.
Susan Lett, M.D.
Tracy Lieu, M.D.
Dale L. Morse, M.D.
Julia Morita, M.D.
Kathleen Neuzil, M.D.
Patricia Stinchfield, N.P.
Ciro Valent Sumaya, M.D.
John J. Treanor, M.D.
Robin J. Womeodu, M.D.

In the event that any of the above ACIP members' terms expire and
they are replaced by new members, the new members will be added
automatically to the list of potential candidates for the Vaccine Offer.

This offer, dated August 1, 2006, has no expiration date unless
superceded by a similar offer of higher remuneration.

In health,

Jock Doubleday
Director
Natural Woman, Natural Man, Inc.
A California 501(c)3 Nonprofit Corporation
http://gentlebirth.org/nwnm.org/nwnm_org.html
__________________
http://yaelwrites.com
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:04 PM   #34
Scott Hanson
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Buffie View Post
Brad,

The point of the graphs is that vaccine advocates say things like "you need to get your shots because vaccines are miracle drugs that eradicated all diseases", when it's plain to see they have not. I do not have the incidence numbers, but that is tying into another point that hasn't been covered here:

Since when is it so bad to get the chicken pox or the measles? What used to happen is that as children were exposed to these benign diseases, their immune systems got a "workout" so to speak, and it was part of it's natural maturing process. Now there are over 70 immunizations given by age six - and look what we've traded measles, mups, and chicken pox for:

1 in 150 kids is autistic
1/2 of all 6 months old have eczema
1 in 15 kids have a severe peanut allergy
1/2 of kids have either asthma or hay fever

Every year they add a new shot, childhood cancer rises 3%. What do these conditions have in common? They are all immune system related. There was an interesting article in Newsweek last week about peanut allergies - basically they are blaming it on the fact that our kids are no longer able to handle germs because of the sterile environment we live in and the vaccines (of course their answer, though is a peanut vaccine!).

On top of that, most outbreaks occur in vaccinated populations.

Didn't really answer you question, but anyways....

Measles is hardly a "benign" disease. According to both CDC and WHO, hundreds of thousands of children die due to measles each year (estimated at345,000 in 2005). I don't argue that correlation = causation, but statistically, measles deaths decreased by 65% globally from 1999 to 2005 during which time 360,000,000 children were vaccinated. To me, this is significantly more convincing than "I did/didn't get vaccinated and I did/didn't get the (insert disease here)". You can reference this data here: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/ .

As far as the flu vaccine's efficacy, any data I've found imply a significantly greater protection than "0% to 14%". Here's one study showing that elderly people are 27% less likely to be hospitalized and 48% less likely to die if vaccinated: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/14/1373.

I admit that I'm just beginning to research this topic, but thought I should present a somewhat opposing view. I don't believe that vaccines are completely safe and effective, however, I'm quite confident that they are effective, to varying degrees, in preventing many terrible diseases.
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:47 AM   #35
Brad Hirakawa
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 169
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Jared and others,

Thanks for your replies. I do see your point and understand what you are getting at.

I’ll post my closing thoughts then leave this alone. My epidemiology text book is ancient, so I admit to using google for some help…

Tracking death rates is not the best way to understand vaccine efficacy. Regarding the graphs you posted… death rates go down over time in part because doctors get better at treating symptoms and stopping the disease from killing people. Patients still suffer and retain the damage from the disease. I agree with the contention that traditional doctors aren't the best at preventative medicine, but in keeping people alive (emergency medicine), they do okay. If you graph disease incidence over time and look at long-term complications (polio for example: permanent nerve, muscle, spinal chord damage, meningitis, paralysis, muscle weakness...), you will note a marked plummet in a very pleasant direction shortly after vaccines are introduced. While your graphs show the death rate steadily decreasing regardless of vaccinations, overlaid data of incidence and disease related problems remain unchanged. Those graphs depict death rates going down, but they are only a small part of the data. I wonder if the folks who disseminate those graphs are purposefully omitting the rest of the data. You have to look at the whole package, data from many trials, across countries, oceans, populations, across long periods of time, etc.

Regarding the statistics you posted. Goldfish also cause cancer. 98% of people with cancer have seen a goldfish at sometime in their lives. I’m just messing with you of course, but that is what ran through my mind with those stats.

Vaccines are not 100% effective, not 100% safe, but pretty darn good in my book(s).

I probably didn’t answer your questions either Jared, but we both had a chance to express our views, so I think we were successful in that regard.

Yael… that was an interesting post. Were I debating vs. me, I would have posted the dollar figures being paid out to folks who have suffered from the potential side effects of some vaccines. But I’m not me in this case. Or am I? Why must you label my essence? (from the immortal words of Tenacious D).

Brad "steadies the boat" Hirakawa

Last edited by Brad Hirakawa : 11-20-2007 at 07:12 AM. Reason: fixed the smiley face
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:52 AM   #36
Brad Hirakawa
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Location: San Diego
Posts: 169
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That square symbol was supposed to be a smiley face...
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