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Old 02-29-2008, 02:23 AM   #21
James Evans
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Karnazes is pretty special though. I'm not usually a fan of 'sporting' biographies but I read his recently and enjoyed it. He stopped running for 15 years at the age of 15 and only resumed on his 30th birthday after some some drunken soul searching. That night he banged out something ridiculous like 17 miles.

I'm a useful if not talented runner. If I stopped for 15 weeks I'd be hurting after a mile. I have to use a programme like the one I suggested for Allen to get back into the groove steadily.

He also, despite the high volume of running accummulated every week, trains pretty hard across the board. Lots of pull ups and push ups everyday, dumb bell work etc. and he allows his passion for surfing, windsurfing, climbing and mountain biking to be sated. Lots of sports remain very traditional and I doubt strength work still gets much of look in bar amongst the most enlightened.

He also admits that he is not necessarily the fastest runner out there. From what I'm aware of, ultra distance is hugely about mental strength and an all round physical toughness. Obviously the body takes a massive catabolic hit and needs weeks of recovery to get over it but these guys are not tuning themselves to be as fast as elite marathoners. Perhaps I'm wrong here.

Look at the example of soldiers in the British armed forces (and I'm talking the elite guys here), the emphasis is on endurance work like marching and running and having the strength to carry equipment, weapons, fellow soldiers etc. We do not have the level of mechanisation enjoyed by the US (I think this is a serious point) and our soldiers have traditionally had to march to get anywhere, usually carrying heavy loads. You see a lot of strongly built soldiers running respectable marathon times, taking part in Tough Guy etc. And I would imagine that would be the same in the US.

And there are guys like Brendan at Santa Cruz who I am sure goes out and runs 20 miles for fun.

But what we are used to in distance is guys looking like the Kenyans.

I'm deviating here onto the nature of endurance work which is for another post. As for Karnazes, absolute legend and inspiration.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:26 AM   #22
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By the way, I'm shocked to hear he is only 5' 5''. I thought he looked 6'.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:52 AM   #23
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Ok so after a bit of thinking (and forgetting the about the thread until this morning).

I have a similiar 1RM to the person that is posted in the video and I know I wouldn't be able to walk into the gym right now and bang out 21 DL's at 225#'s. I haven't ever done DL's like I often see in CrossFit videos though. Like you James. almost the majority of my training in the past with the exception of the last 5 months have been with metal plates and even trying to do them at the speed he is going at with metal plates is just NOT going to happen.

A slower negative in any exercise will be harder period than the same exercise with little to no negative. Like your TGU example, it's a hell of a lot easier to get to the top and dump the implement then to get back down into starting position.

A slower negative will also also add time since hypotehtically even a "faster but safe negative" is still probably in the 1-3 second range and if you were able to do everything else unbroken that is still 45 DL's with an extra 1-3 seconds per rep so right there could add anywhere from 45-135 seconds to your total time. That is a huge difference when you start getting in the sub 5's on any of the benchmark workouts.

A perfect example of the time difference is that video of Greg doing Diane a while back he actually had 2 videos Diane, because he was slamming the weight down in the first one so after enough bitching from people on the CF Board he did it again with a slower DL and his time was still really good but not as good as his original time. I tried digging for both of those videos but I'm not able to find them at the moment. Maybe Greg will give us the link and some insight into this question as I know he's has done them both ways.

Later today perhaps when I'm in the gym I'll give a few faster DL's a try with some bumpers and see what the difference is just for the sake of comparison.
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:53 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Evans View Post
Karnazes is pretty special though. I'm not usually a fan of 'sporting' biographies but I read his recently and enjoyed it. He stopped running for 15 years at the age of 15 and only resumed on his 30th birthday after some some drunken soul searching. That night he banged out something ridiculous like 17 miles.
Holy crap....
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:58 AM   #25
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Now I sound like I'm badmouthing technique again which isn't the aim and I have no idea how I can apply these ideas to thrusters or HSPUs where there really is nowhere to hide.
I guess going a little off topic since this is a little bit more to do with technique. Did you see that post by Kelly Moore about technique? A very well thought out post I thought.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=27025
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:08 AM   #26
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Upon reflection I think both technique and some requisite strength are necessary.

Taking a look at your example of high-rep guys going to the low end.

Ross definitely had a strong DL without actually working the DL because he had built up his base, a lot. That gives a lot of credence to Bill Starr's program to build up a deadlift without actually deadlifting at all. I think it was Peter Puetz that loaded that program on here. (which I totally forgot about until just now). That program has tons of power cleans, shrugs...etc but nowhere close to the load of a max DL for weeks.

An interesting experiment would be to take the same person and somehow create of a clone of him at the exact same time and start them off on 2 different methodology's to see where each one is at a 6 months from them (same diet and other factors, bear with me this is a hypothetical).

Clone A:
-All high rep stuff nothing approaching 1RM for anything, swings, snatches, power cleans...etc

Clone B:
-All low rep stuff for the most part training the major lifts and accesories.

At the end of the 6 months you test the clone on what they haven't been working on.

Clone A:
Let's find his 1RM in DL.

Clone B:
Let's take a number of DL's that Clone A did for...21 or something like that and see if Clone B would be able to do 21.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:53 AM   #27
James Evans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Yeh View Post

An interesting experiment would be to take the same person and somehow create of a clone of him at the exact same time and start them off on 2 different methodology's to see where each one is at a 6 months from them (same diet and other factors, bear with me this is a hypothetical).

Clone A:
-All high rep stuff nothing approaching 1RM for anything, swings, snatches, power cleans...etc

Clone B:
-All low rep stuff for the most part training the major lifts and accesories.

At the end of the 6 months you test the clone on what they haven't been working on.

Clone A:
Let's find his 1RM in DL.

Clone B:
Let's take a number of DL's that Clone A did for...21 or something like that and see if Clone B would be able to do 21.
Successful human cloning would find a profitable marketplace in the world of athletic research alone!

Having identikit athletes and doing whatever you wanted with them without having to factor in variables, life would be a lot easier. And far more sinister.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Yeh View Post
Ok so after a bit of thinking (and forgetting the about the thread until this morning).

I have a similiar 1RM to the person that is posted in the video and I know I wouldn't be able to walk into the gym right now and bang out 21 DL's at 225#'s. I haven't ever done DL's like I often see in CrossFit videos though. Like you James. almost the majority of my training in the past with the exception of the last 5 months have been with metal plates and even trying to do them at the speed he is going at with metal plates is just NOT going to happen.

A slower negative in any exercise will be harder period than the same exercise with little to no negative. Like your TGU example, it's a hell of a lot easier to get to the top and dump the implement then to get back down into starting position.

A slower negative will also also add time since hypotehtically even a "faster but safe negative" is still probably in the 1-3 second range and if you were able to do everything else unbroken that is still 45 DL's with an extra 1-3 seconds per rep so right there could add anywhere from 45-135 seconds to your total time. That is a huge difference when you start getting in the sub 5's on any of the benchmark workouts.

A perfect example of the time difference is that video of Greg doing Diane a while back he actually had 2 videos Diane, because he was slamming the weight down in the first one so after enough bitching from people on the CF Board he did it again with a slower DL and his time was still really good but not as good as his original time. I tried digging for both of those videos but I'm not able to find them at the moment. Maybe Greg will give us the link and some insight into this question as I know he's has done them both ways.

Later today perhaps when I'm in the gym I'll give a few faster DL's a try with some bumpers and see what the difference is just for the sake of comparison.
Good stuff Allen.

To be honest it wouldn't make me much faster in the end result. I accept that strength is the key here but I think it's an interesting idea to think through.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:57 AM   #29
James Evans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Yeh View Post
I guess going a little off topic since this is a little bit more to do with technique. Did you see that post by Kelly Moore about technique? A very well thought out post I thought.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=27025
Kelly is a true Spartan.
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:42 AM   #30
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i find it interesting that elite endurance athletes in the marathon range seem to be emaciated (at least compared to strength and sprint athletes), but a guy like Dean Karnazes is not emaciated, in any sense of the word. nor is Catra Corbett. she's a crossfitter, though. are they genetic anomalies? i don't know much about ultrarunners, but i'd guess they'd be affected by the same by the catabolic nature of LSD.
I am sure they have a cycles of strength training....vs always doing only LSD. I would also guess their cal intake is sky high like 5000-8000cal to keep muscle. In a longevity POV, 5000-8000k a day and the high levels of possible oxidative damage is not good for the body long term. Of course you may find a person who can eat 8000cal a day, run 50 miles a day, smoke, drink and live till 99....but I would say that is 0.001% of the population. Or you can find elite athletes also having heart attacks at 40yrs old. It's a guessing game, but all you can do is take precautions and everything in moderation.
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