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Old 03-14-2008, 03:25 PM   #21
Garrett Smith
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Dave,
I totally agree.

Neill,
Here's my observation on your "segmented" statement. Donny obviously trained in very low rep ranges to build his strength base (a very segmented way of training). He then unleashes quite a "Grace" time, definitely outside of any of his typical rep range training parameters and probably with movements that he may not train much at all. So, his segmented training (movement and rep-wise) would seem to be the reason he could put up such a time.

I would guess that gymnasts of any capacity likely never find the need to do standard push-ups or pull-ups, as they are so far beyond those exercises in terms of developing bodyweight-exercise strength. Yet if there was a WOD that was only push-ups and pull-ups, a gymnast would likely kick butt, using movements that had not been specifically trained and in rep ranges that they likely rarely if ever venture into. This would solely be due to a single push-up or pull-up requiring so little of a gymnast's potential strength capacity on that move.

Basically, I don't think it is as segmented as we are led to believe, especially if we put a majority of our efforts into the two modalities (gymnastics and OL-specific training) that make up the majority of the CF WODs.

Also, I'd rather put up a good snatch + C&J number, as well as do things like front levers, back levers, and press handstands, than to put up big numbers on a workout like "Cindy".
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:36 PM   #22
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You can teach a strength athlete endurace pretty quickly....

You can't teach an endurance athlete strength quickly....

In my book, majority of training should be strength and diet....conditioning can come at any time later with practice....
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:51 PM   #23
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Also, I just find putting up a single rep PR or getting a new gymnastics strength move so much more satisfying than cutting seconds off or getting more rounds of an overly repetitive metcon.

I also believe that the adrenal-tapping tendencies of too much (or too long) metcon is really starting to rear its ugly head. It is not talked about much by anyone but me. I think that tendency drives people away from metcon-heavy programs after being on them a while--they outrun their adaptation potential and don't stress their recovery (especially if it is interfering with their 3-on 1-off schedule!). That's in addition to their achy joint(s)--likely due to decreased cortisol production (cortisol, if one didn't know already, is the body's MOST potent anti-inflammatory compound, bar none).
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:04 PM   #24
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That's great feedback, Garrett.

Here's what I'm getting at. Some CrossFit tenets are:
  1. Segmented training builds segmented capacity.
  2. Fitness = work capacity (functional movement capacity) over broad time and modal domains.
  3. The best way to improve fitness is a program that uses highly varied, random functional movements performed at a high level of intensity.
Looking at how OL and gymnastic specialists perform in metcon workouts, is it possible to agree with all three statements above?
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:51 PM   #25
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his C&J as stated on the video was something like 158kg.

the man is 94 kg national champion. he has snatched 158 and cj 200 kg. -g
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:28 PM   #26
Arden Cogar Jr.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Yeh View Post
I think it's crazy that he did muscle cleans and still got that time, muscle cleans are "harder" and slower than power cleans. The fact that he strict pressed half the reps was pretty crazy too.
I didn't realize. Even more impressive.

All the best,
Arden
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:11 PM   #27
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I personally think that this video is awesome to watch (trust me, it was even cooler to be there) but it does not serve as good evidence that exclusive maximal strength training is good for overall fitness. Donnie rocked the workout, but he was SMOKED for seriously four hours after that. He was able to do that since he is absurdly strong, but I would say that he is out of shape. We have a few athletes here alone that can do sub-5 min. Graces, but could then do it again...and again, no problem.

While the Olympic lifts are unparalleled in producing power and usable flexibility, they are part of a more complete program. Short, medium, and long (30min. or more) power and kettlebell heavy metcons are staples at Rogue and CrossFit in general. They mesh great with dedicated strength and speed training. I have yet to see a motivated client stall in progress in either strength, power, or work capacity. Heavy metcons are mentally tough, especially when done often, but it is up to good coaching to modulate the program to manage fatigue to keep them doable. Case in point, the PM-WOD and Greg do an outstanding job of moderating fatigue to keep intensity at an average high.

It's all up to what is important to you. O-lifting will set the stage for awesome work capacity, but it will not develop it by itself.

Keep pushing the limits.
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Old 03-15-2008, 03:01 AM   #28
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Wow!!! If the there was a little icon on it's knees praising, i'd put it here. Absolutely fantastic work. Unreal.

All the best,
Arden


Quote:
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yes i did do 30 reps of power snatch in 90 seconds.
I beleive my grace is in the upper 2min range. the sn is much faster as it is 1 motion. also because it only requires 1 jump/drive with the legs it has a lower cardio cost. There is a qulaifier to my time though... I beleive I was catching in a small split stance then begining to lower the wt as i was standing up, thus finishing about 2" or so short on each rep. It's a pretty suttle move but when tony budding asked me about it I went back and repped out some snatches for speed and i was indeed lowering the wt before reaching full extension of the hips. At any rate i have not repeated isobel but i have done sets of ten for time and i can do 10 reps in 20-21 sec. The time I did isobel I did 20 straight reps without dropping the wt in 45 sec. then it took me 45 sec to do the last 10 reps.. ibeive in 7 then 3 reps. they basically become muscle snatches as the nervous system and coordination disapear about rep 15.
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Old 03-15-2008, 06:02 AM   #29
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Basically, I don't think it is as segmented as we are led to believe, especially if we put a majority of our efforts into the two modalities (gymnastics and OL-specific training) that make up the majority of the CF WODs.
If you keep reworking this thing, you're going to get something similar to CrossFit v.2008. I agree with a lot of what you said, and I think Coach is already there.

A couple months ago, I decided to do gymnastics, explosive lifts, and slow lifts with a sprinkling of metcon in these areas (usually odd things, like tires, sledge, KBs, sandbags, and stones (if I could pick the damn things up). No chippers, and no long metcons outside of the Heroes, Eva, and the Filthy Fifty (which isn't long), and I like the way things are progressing.
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Old 03-15-2008, 10:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arden Cogar Jr. View Post
Wow!!! If the there was a little icon on it's knees praising, i'd put it here. Absolutely fantastic work. Unreal.

All the best,
Arden
Arden speaking of the little icon. The family and I were watching you and team USA take Gold at the ESPN outdoors games on TV this morning. I think it was 2005.

Pretty nice peice of undercut axe work.
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