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Old 04-08-2008, 02:27 PM   #11
Garrett Smith
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Gant,
Aspect appreciated! Let me just say I really appreciate your presence on the forum.
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Old 04-08-2008, 04:00 PM   #12
Dave Van Skike
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Obviously if you start massively subbing stuff it's not really SS anymore.

SS is not a program, nor is it a brand nor is it a holy screed. The example template Rip lays' out is his appraoch to training beginners. If you understand the meta principles, subbing massively to meet specific goals is a damn good idea. It's one reason 5x5 is so effective is that it works for a lot of different goals including BB'ing.
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
SS is not a program, nor is it a brand nor is it a holy screed. The example template Rip lays' out is his appraoch to training beginners. If you understand the meta principles, subbing massively to meet specific goals is a damn good idea. It's one reason 5x5 is so effective is that it works for a lot of different goals including BB'ing.
On the other hand, if you don't know what the hell you're doing (most beginners and even some intermediate and advanced) then subbing massively is a very poor idea. Hence, why not messing with the program is generally extremely sound advice.

There's really just not that many good subs because most of "SS as prescribed by Rip" (if you prefer I say it that way) already includes most of the good compound exercises. Subbing for specific goals is always a good idea... but most people can't do that or don't know how to effectively.
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:47 PM   #14
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That's fair.

However, which is a skill you'll continue to use, knowing what works for you and relentlessly smothering your weaknesses or brilliantly reading and following the template?

Check out the Q and A with Mark at the strengthmill. Half the commenets are "do it my way or don't" the rest of them are "try it and see."
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:58 PM   #15
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Not to thread-jack, but this article raised some qustions for me. Should someone with zero coaching sub the row for the clean? All my weight lifting is self-taught (sp?) from text and video. For this reason, should I do that subbing. At least until I get the chance to get some coaching? My form doesnt feel to bad, but honestly, without watching it and getting corrected, how can you know?
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Old 04-09-2008, 06:03 AM   #16
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The row will be easier to do right without coaching than the clean.
Here's a nice row article
http://powerandbulk.com/phpBB2/viewt...2c47 276a84dc
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Old 04-09-2008, 08:01 AM   #17
Steven Low
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Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
That's fair.

However, which is a skill you'll continue to use, knowing what works for you and relentlessly smothering your weaknesses or brilliantly reading and following the template?

Check out the Q and A with Mark at the strengthmill. Half the commenets are "do it my way or don't" the rest of them are "try it and see."
I don't need to read his Q&A to know that (even though I do occasionally read his Q&A for the sheer hilarity of most of his responses).
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:37 PM   #18
Gant Grimes
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Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
That's fair.

However, which is a skill you'll continue to use, knowing what works for you and relentlessly smothering your weaknesses or brilliantly reading and following the template?

Check out the Q and A with Mark at the strengthmill. Half the commenets are "do it my way or don't" the rest of them are "try it and see."
This has turned into a semantics argument, which is missing the point. When discussing programs, "SS" has come to mean the A/B program outlined in Basic Barbell Training. It makes reference easier. Rip himself refers to it only as a model. When asked about which novice program to use, he said, "They all work well. Pick the one that suits your facility, your schedule, and your preference." (Strengthmill). The one used by most novices at his gym is actually the Onus Wunsler program outlined in SS (at least that's the one written on the chalkboard most of the time).

Obviously the better practice is learning to program, but most do it prematurely. You can't properly program if you don't know how to do the lifts or what they're for. "Do what I say" works best for novices because these are the guys that insert Men's Health crap into their workout the first chance they get. Any good coach knows when to impose his judgment on the trainee and when to let the athlete experiment. Too many athletes experiment too early.

It's like a good margarita. Tequila, triple sec, and lime juice. If a seasoned bartender modifies the recipe, I'll go with it. But some jackass who started drinking last month? Waste of time and alcohol.

**Dr. G, thanks for the comment. I enjoy the discussion on this board much more than other forums. Incidentally, I have comparatively little to contribute.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:50 PM   #19
Derek Simonds
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Originally Posted by John Alston View Post
The row will be easier to do right without coaching than the clean.
Here's a nice row article
http://powerandbulk.com/phpBB2/viewt...2c47 276a84dc
I agree with John and have added rows into my programming in addition to cleans.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:38 PM   #20
Garrett Smith
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Gant,
I disagree that you have little to contribute. There are the theorists, then there are the guys in the trenches doing the Black Box work. Your personal experimentation has likely been appreciated by more people on this forum than you'll ever know.

The PMenu is a great group of innovators and early adopters, and Greg E. keeps people in line here (myself included).

In case some of you hadn't seen Ken Urakawa's avatar up close and you appreciate the PMenu forum for the discussion/debating without the arguing/namecalling, I think you'd like seeing it in full size (NOT politically correct):
http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.p...9a680/463c5922
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