Deadlifts for weightlifting

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Thanks John,
I am a born puller who's very simian in appearance- long arms, short legs, and a short torso. I don't do low reps ME sets anymore. The last time I singled anything of significance was last February training with Phil when I stood up with 775. Since that time, per the insistence of my wife, I have not pulled anything over 625 (her exact words were "you're a lumberjack, not a strongman; if you get hemmorroids I don't wanna hear about it." ).

My best power clean starting last fall was 275. And boy was it a slow reverse curl. Right now, I reckon I could squat clean that pretty easy and probably power clean somewhere in the low 3s. I haven't gone anywhere near a max and played with 315 for a few reps back in December. I'm still learning to pull myself under the bar with weights that push me. Part of me wants to stick with the more comfortable weights until I get closer to mastering the technique.

I've ditched all supportive gear in the squats. I set a PR a few days ago in the front squat holding it in a rack position. I got 385. I can "cross your heart" a lot more than that, but I want to get the flexibility in my wrist and shoulders. I dumped 405 during the same session. I think my daughters and I are going to do a weighlifting comp at East Coast Gold in Moorestown this Fall. Oh boy.

On the back squats, I haven't gone over 455 in years. Could go calves on hammys for a few reps I reckon, but I don't know. It's been a while. I really don't know if I want to anymore.

All the best,
Arden

Originally Posted by John Alston

Right on.
Just curious about some of our numbers across lifts. I know Arden pulls big!

My best clean (missed the jerk) is 115kg (252#), best back squat (ATG upright high bar oly style) a 300lb single, but I don't think I've pulled more than 315# off the floor before, not having tried more than that one time. I've RDL'ed 255# for sets of 5 but that was a while ago. Actually, all these numbers are more than what I could do right now. Sigh...

[John Alston]

Originally Posted by Arden Cogar Jr.

Thanks John,

I've ditched all supportive gear in the squats. I set a PR a few days ago in the front squat holding it in a rack position. I got 385. I can "cross your heart" a lot more than that, but I want to get the flexibility in my wrist and shoulders. I dumped 405 during the same session. I think my daughters and I are going to do a weighlifting comp at East Coast Gold in Moorestown this Fall. Oh boy.


All the best,
Arden

Good lifts, man, inspiring stuff.
I am a NYC fellow but haven't made it out to a single Jersey meet yet. Will try to make that one. First oly comp? Comps are a blast. Shit, I been outta da loop too long...

[Gant Grimes]

Good thread, guys. It also says something about sometimes over-emphasizing the things you like to do, and damn I love to deadlift and back squat.

Maybe that's why I can power clean 10kg more than I squat clean and power snatch about 20 kg more than I can OHS.

[Gant Grimes]

Originally Posted by Arden Cogar Jr.

The last time I singled anything of significance was last February training with Phil when I stood up with 775. Since that time, per the insistence of my wife, I have not pulled anything over 625 (her exact words were "you're a lumberjack, not a strongman; if you get hemmorroids I don't wanna hear about it." ).

My wife and I fight about the usual stupid things. Just once I wish I could come home and hear, "listen honey, I'm tired of you deadlifting damn near 800 pounds. If I catch you doing anything over 650 I'm out of here!"

Strong stuff, big man.

[Arien Malec]

Originally Posted by John Alston

Right on.
Just curious about some of our numbers across lifts.

Best atg back squat is 230#, fs 195, best dl is 305 but tested a long time ago. Last time I tried, I had grip failure. Going to try for a single tomorrow...

Best clean is 150#, c&j, 145#.

RDL: never tried for a max -- did 195x8x3 a while ago

[John Alston]

Word.
Yeah, RDL's I don't like for maxing, just a set of 3-5. I always throw in an equal number of power surgs after each set. Toe push and snap to the ears!

[Yuen Sohn]

Originally Posted by Arien Malec

John -- I'm similar to you in being stronger in the pull than in the squat (I'm an intermediate in rip's strength chart for the dead, but only a novice in the back squat and press), but not particularly strong in any.

So maybe I want to separate the question:

For someone who is lacking a strength base, is there anything wrong with adding max effort deads (doubles, triples, single sets of 5) as part of an overall weightlifting program?

I'm liking the answer "go for it" :-)

I've had good experience incorporating clean/snatch deadlifts, but I've only ever gone up to ~110% of max clean/snatch. Great confidence builder if the 1st pulls tend to feel heavy.

You may have seen this video of Kendrick Farris snatch deadlifting 230kg for 5 which I think is about 150% of his best snatch. So I'd say there's definitely merit in going heavy, depending on the individual of course.

On the subject of relative numbers, you will all laugh at me, but the most I've ever pulled from the floor (about 2 years into strength/Oly training) is 120kg. My max clean is 110, clean and jerk is 108, front squat is 117.5. I haven't maxed out the back squat recently, but that has always been pretty close to my front squat. Could I benefit from a better strength base? Most definitely. I've spent a bit too much time thinking about technique/efficiency and not nearly enough on the strength component!

btw, here's another pretty extensive discussion of deadlifting as it applies to Olympic lifting:
http://goheavy.com/forums/olympic/index.cgi/read/64281

[Arien Malec]

Originally Posted by Yoon Sohn

btw, here's another pretty extensive discussion of deadlifting as it applies to Olympic lifting:
http://goheavy.com/forums/olympic/index.cgi/read/64281

Interesting discussion -- seems like the gathering there go somewhere between fearing deads (trains slow) and using light deads (up to 120% of clean), but no consensus for heavy deads. I'm not sure I understand -- if you are going to do assistance training for strength, why not use the exercise that builds the most strength?

OTOH, I'm thinking Gant's ultimately right -- perhaps this is about doing what I'm good at rather than what is best for me.

Given that my back squat is about 70% of deadlift, that's the strength area I should be working on, and that's ultimately behind jerk technique, snatch technique, clean technique, and upper body strength (when I max on OHS, it's the shoulders and traps that limit me), in that order, as overall limits to my core lifts.

I had my gratifying max effort deadlift day today (PR by 15#s) so back to the much more frustrating grind of working the items above

[Greg Everett]

Arien -

I've only skimmed this thread, so forgive me if I'm completely off target. What I would add is simply that there is a big difference between a max effort deadlift and a max effort clean deadlift (not to mention snatch DL). With the former, anything goes - leading with the hips, rounded back, whatever - essentially all that matters is getting the bar up. With a deadlift used specifically for weightlifting, positioning is critical, and loads that exceed your ability to maintain correct pulling posture (as defined for the clean and snatch, not DL) are defeating the purpose. It's surprisingly common to find people with 400+ lb deadlifts who can even clean 200 lbs, and often who can't even maintain back extension during the pull.

Additionally, the more advanced a weightlifter, the greater % of strength he or she will be able to apply to the lifts; that is, the gap between deadlift and clean/snatch will diminish. This is not an issue of less strength, but of better application. When technique is the limiting factor, the numbers can seem far off for strength work.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Originally Posted by Greg Everett

Arien -
Additionally, the more advanced a weightlifter, the greater % of strength he or she will be able to apply to the lifts; that is, the gap between deadlift and clean/snatch will diminish. This is not an issue of less strength, but of better application. When technique is the limiting factor, the numbers can seem far off for strength work.

This soooooo sounds like me, but in the reverse. Can pull lots, but clean/snatch are way behind. Technique is completely the limiting factor. It's for that reason, I've dedicated to learning the movements from the top down and never going anywhere near my max until I'm more confident with the full movements.

As always, Greg's insite is unreal. I would so love to go to one of his seminars or getting a training session under his watchful eyes.

All the best,
Arden