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Old 12-12-2006, 06:39 AM   #11
Mike ODonnell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Auge View Post
Hockey is a terrible example of this because as the injury ratios go up in the sport S&C coaches are getting further and further away from efficacious training. And because of this the injury ratios climb... It's a vicious circle.

A good coach shouldn't stand on competent athletes a good coach should produce competent athletes. If an athlete can't perform an exercise safely its the coaches problem. If the athlete trains themself and can't perform safely then its their own. Hockey is the worst sport on the planet when it comes to S&C coaches knowing the needs of their players. Mainly because none of them have played the damn sport and don't understand the risks!
As a hockey player my whole life and knowing some S&C coaches to pro teams I can honestly say that is not true. I have an offseason program from an NHL team that specifically has Power Cleans, Deadlifts, Squats built in and programmed anywhere from sets of 3 to 8. Because NO ONE has the transcript to what Boyle actually said, it's pure guess work to know what his intention or message truely is on high rep OLY lifting. Mike Boyle is a smart man and produces pro level hockey players, that's his job to do that. You see plenty of pro athletes working with the likes of Mark V (Core Performance), Juan Carlos Santana, Mike Boyle, etc....all who you know are using OLY movements in their training periodization (along with other specific training just for the needs of the sport).

Remember to, if you are a S&C coach...and you do things that hurt athletes in the offseason then you are not going to be in business long. Doing a clean/DL with 85% max 21 times will lead to bad form as fatigue sets in. If you don't believe me you can read the Xfit message boards and see all the people talking about back, shoulder, knee, wrist pain etc. Do that to an athlete just once and you are fired as a S&C coach. Pro athletes also do 2 hours of sprints on ice, track work and other things....so conditioning with high rep OLY lifts is not needed and will actually take away from their other training. Those lifts are meant for low reps and power in that kind of sports program. They get plenty of other conditioning work in later.

Poliquin also calls out the Westside guys and says "box squats are useless"....but that's the nature of this business, everyone has their own philosophy...you just can't expect yours to be the only right answer out there.

Boyle probably has no idea there is this huge debate going on. He may not even know what CF is. I would love to see him invited here to comment, I think he deserves his say before the hanging at the town internet square. Something tells me though I may end agreeing with Boyle on this subject.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:00 AM   #12
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I don't see why he should comment, Steve. It really is just another "blip" on the crazy screen. "I heard somebody say that you said that..." is more appropriate for my high school hallways than intelligent discourse. Frankly, to say I am disappointed would be an understatement.

You might notice that posts that disagree with the party line on "that site" get taken off quickly. Larry "somebody" was cleared right off when they pointed out that once again, ONE person started the fight.

Personally, I just think some people are mad because they weren't invited to speak at a conference. Also...the constant attacks on Mark Twight have just become pathetic. Mark is the real deal. I have been with him when he works "people." The people he works with are the real deal.
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Old 12-12-2006, 10:01 AM   #13
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No, I don't think Mike Boyle needs to comment, I didn't mean to imply that he should. I just thought that it was funny that there's this kind of low noise about something he said, but he's just keeping on keeping on.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:02 AM   #14
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But, he did:

People have asked me to speak so I will. To address a few points
1- It amazes me how people can turn idealogy person. I don't feel I have a big ego and don't consider myself a capitalist. I paid my own way to the SOMA Conference to sit on a panel and provide an opinion. I did that and fully expected to be asked the "CrossFit" question. I gave my opinion. I don't like high rep olympic lifting and particularly dislike it for those who are not good at it. There are better ways to work hard and develop muscle endurance.
2- I sat next to Mark Twight. I had a good conversation with him and exchanged emails. I don't believe any comments were directed at Mark. Hopefully if he reads this board he can address this himself.
3- My athletes regularly use olympic lifts. We hang clean, snatch and dumbell snatch. I have written articles on teaching olympic lifts and have produced a video on the same. We rarely do more than 5 reps. I use olympic lifts for power and other methods for endurance.
4-I train kids and adults as well as professional athletes.
I have no interest in making money off the military and have no issue with the people at CrossFit. That being said, I stand by original comments.

Thanks
Michael

Comment #152 - Posted by Michael Boyle at December 12, 2006 08:50 AM
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:25 AM   #15
Mike ODonnell
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Mike is a stand up guy and I like the stuff he puts out. That being said....if anything this whole thing just brings to light what many people like myself really haven't seen before. It's grade school gossip at best.

Dan, where did Mike post that out of curiosity?
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:52 AM   #16
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In the Crossfit WOD blog. #153 or something.
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:01 PM   #17
Pierre Auge
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Mike,
firstly my opinion of Mike Boyle is a very high opinion.

secondly if you read my comment more closely you will see that I agree with you that doing 21 reps with 85% of max is close to stupidity. (though I do it myself to myself because I can push there) I would never bring an athlete to that point. This is why I make the broomstick comment.

I disagree with you on S&C for hockey, I as well have been around hockey all my life. My family owned a successful Junior A team fo several years. And my argument is that until you get to a professional level, S&C for the sport is all but non existant. I can't speak on Junior level clubs in the U.S. as I've no experience there but here in Canada few junior clubs have significant S&C programs.

I think all of Mike Boyle's comments are accurate, and I think he is wise. But I have no problem in making someone perform high rep Olympic lifts because mastery of a broomstick or medicine ball will always be precursor to heavier objectives. We are only limited by our own imaginations.

Thats my only point, the exercise is dismissed because of an inate association to heavy weights, the reason we use the lifts in this manner has nothing to do with the weights in my opinion, but is relative to the dynamicism in the body involved in the movement.

Dynamicism in the body not the implement, thats what makes these great at high repetition. So screw the weight if you have too, but get moving thats all I'm saying.

Anyway its an insignificant blip in time as Dan John said. And these are just my opinions which most probably don't matter much and will continue to evolve as I get older and mature in experience.

Danny thanks for that post, puts things in perspective.
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:32 PM   #18
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I have some thoughts on this...too burried to organize them right now.
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:48 PM   #19
Mike ODonnell
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Couldn't find Mike's post on the CF boards...must of been deleted or I am mildly retarted right now...each has a good probability.

Pierre, I guess I should of said "NHL S&C" coaches only. Yeah Juniors and minor league systems really are another story....that's more like you get a free gym pass to a local fitness center and that is it. There are no S&C specialists pretty much in the minors.....or they are worth the $15k they get paid a year. My High School conditioning program consisted of a rusted out all in one nautilus machine in the basement of the school with a senior telling you what to do.
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Old 12-12-2006, 01:29 PM   #20
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In the WOD comment blog on the main page.

http://www.crossfit.com/cgi-bin/move...?entry_id=1562
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