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Old 06-13-2008, 10:12 AM   #91
James Evans
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Basically, anyone can create endurance capacity with enough training at it, fat or lean. LSD is "easy" to build compared to strength and power.
But not "anyone" can build strength and power with enough training at it?

I'm not particularly interested in +3.30 marathon times as evidence of this. You can jog-walk a distance event and hurt like fuck for a week after but that doesn't mean you've trained your endurance levels to anything to write home about.

If we set the goal post there then how do we apply that to strength? For a beginner to relatively quickly reach bodyweight (before maybe a plateau) in a number of lifts - easy or hard? Sure, a sub 3 marathon for those not genitically proposed for endurance work is probably going to be as difficult to come by as a massive deadlift.

Now, I know you have just said LSD but I hear that bandied around as the tag for all endurance events and that gets a little tedious.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bark at you but just because every S&C columnist writes an article about how all joggers are either fat, miserable or both it does not mean that endurance is exclusively LSD and the domain of the fat, miserable or both.

And personally I do think jogging 3 miles a day at the same pace week in week out is bullshit.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:24 AM   #92
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I started to write this earlier in the week but I went away and gave it a little more thought. In the context of what is being discussed here I wondered how many of you were familiar with the templates laid down by Ross Enamait in Infinite Intensity and Never Gymless (which is primarily bodyweight focused)* and how they would fit this hybrid model. I've lent my copy of II to someone but I had a quick flick through NG to refresh my memory.

Basically you employ a 5 day cycle:

Day 1: Conditioning

Day 2: Maximal Strength/Core work

Day 3: Conditioning

Day 4: Explosive Strength/Core work

Day 5: Rest
Great thread...just going to share my lifestyle method that I am playing around with. Trying to find my happy spot in which I can do things I enjoy but also gain maximum health and fitness...with that being said I have focused this summer to:
- More bodyweight exercises (rings are on the way....Yipee!)
- No...Zero....Zip.....Gym time...everything outside in nature
- Minimal equipment....rings...backpack with plates/weights....and going to get some old rusty adjustable DB/plates from craigslist (love the simplicity of it)
- More 1 legged focus for sports/activities (1 legged squats/lunges, etc)
- More sprinting/running/biking

So that being said the goal is something like above:

Play Days - Go outside and Run/Bike....start off with intervals/hills and then progress into longer activity (nothing over 45min total)

Bodyweight and Explosive Days - Snatch/Clean/Swing rusty DB for sets of 5 each arm (heavy) and other bodyweight exercises on rings/ground with no additional weights for multiple sets of around 10.

Heavy Bodyweight - Backpack and weights for lunges (uphill), 1 legged squats, weighted dips, pushups, pullups....sets of 5

and just have fun with it...listen to my body...and tweak as I go for fat loss and muscle gain....life is fun...so should the workouts be.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:28 AM   #93
Mike ODonnell
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And personally I do think jogging 3 miles a day at the same pace week in week out is bullshit.
Does get decent fat loss on a CKD diet regimine however....if one also adds in a few strength workouts and keep their protein intake high enough. 3miles is only like 30min....not alot. Although jogging slow is boring.....rather run like someone is chasing me.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:42 AM   #94
James Evans
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and just have fun with it...listen to my body...and tweak as I go for fat loss and muscle gain....life is fun...so should the workouts be.
Exactly. Get some air. Enjoy what you're doing. Adapt to what's around you and adapt what your doing as it suits.

I sit in this damn office some days fuming because I'm not going to get home in time to do a certain routine I've been working on. I'm much happier when I just decide what I'm going to do the moment I get home. And some times that might change after the first set!

This week I have distinctly disliked:
Rutman
Ross Enamait

Last week:
Dan John
Rob Shaul
Alwyn Cosgrove
but Zach Even-Esh was alright.

Quite often Mark Twight is a hate figure in my world too.

One thing I can't really alter though are the nights I want to get out on the bike and I get back with 40 minutes of daylight left. It makes me hammer it more at the weekend. Last year I took 4 months off work and could bike when and where I wanted. Fantastic.

Got very poor though.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:04 AM   #95
Anton Emery
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Originally Posted by James Evans View Post
I started to write this earlier in the week but I went away and gave it a little more thought. In the context of what is being discussed here I wondered how many of you were familiar with the templates laid down by Ross Enamait in Infinite Intensity and Never Gymless (which is primarily bodyweight focused)* and how they would fit this hybrid model. I've lent my copy of II to someone but I had a quick flick through NG to refresh my memory.

Basically you employ a 5 day cycle:

Day 1: Conditioning

Day 2: Maximal Strength/Core work

Day 3: Conditioning

Day 4: Explosive Strength/Core work

Day 5: Rest

.........
Cool to see Ross's stuff mentioned. After reading this thread i was just flipping through his two books and the booklet that came along with his DVD. He puts out such great products..

I think the day to day plan laid out in II would work well for a type of hybrid programming like this. I tried the II routine a while back but found myself mostly skipping the running workouts. I was doing 3-4 days of BJJ at the time, and couldnt really fit it all in.

Ross uses dumbell versions of the O-lifts in II. One could easily sub in regular barbell versions, use a keg, etc. One thing i like about his manuals is he wants you to come away with knowledge to construct your own plans based on what you have available to you.

Here is what i am kind of throwing around in my head as far as a hybrid type plan.

Day 1 Max Stregth/Slow lift day or gymnastics/ring work.

Strength Circuit (ala Robb Wolf) 3-5 x 2- 5 reps

Deadlift or Squat
Weighted Ring Dip
Weighted Pull up

Core Work
Finisher-Farmers Walk, Sandbag Carry, Tabata something, etc

Day 2 Heavy Metcon/GPP Day

Something like Fran, Ross's Magic 50, or whatever else i can come up with. Quick and heavy.

Some sort of core work.

Day 3. Explosive strength

Non maximal O lifts
Explosive Pushups
Jumping Squats
Ball Slams
Sledgehammer work
etc

I think on this day i would either have some sort of circuit routine like:

5 Keg Clean and Press
10 Med Ball Slams
20 Jump Squats
5 rounds

so i would get some conditioning benefits too, or else use a more traditional set/rep scheme and work the O-lifts and throw in some jumping squats and plyo pushups afterwards. Depends on how i feel from BJJ, i think the above routine plus 3-4 days a week of good BJJ practice would work well for me.



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Old 06-13-2008, 11:55 AM   #96
Garrett Smith
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James,
Maybe I was misunderstood and/or I'm misunderstanding you.

I'm personally not interested in the "benefits" of the modern long time+distance activities, whether done fast/elite or slow/amateur. The 3-mile constant speed jogging you mentioned would be a good example.

Getting an untrained person to be proficient at long slow distance is easy (building basic hamster-wheel endurance), that's what I'm referring to. Getting an untrained person up to basic strength, if we set decent standards, will likely take a bit longer with more focus required than say, simply going out and jogging (and maybe never increasing in speed, only in distance capable of covering).

I did not mean to do the LSD/endurance-bashing you are mentioning that other S&C coaches are doing. I'm implying that a decent level of aerobic endurance can be trained using anaerobic methods (ie. Tabata) and there may be significant drawbacks to conventional endurance/LSD training that make it undesirable to do for many folks (particularly those interested in this thread).

I think we're mainly on the same page, I may have initially come across wrong to you.

Strength and power can be built by anyone, yes. Decent levels of it take longer to build than general endurance. "Endurance" can be gained through strength and power training (ie. runners adding squats and getting faster), but I really don't believe conventional endurance LSD training transfers the other way.

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Old 06-13-2008, 03:25 PM   #97
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FYI tabata method draws a lot of energy from aerobic pathways. Same with HIIT. There's good reason why these correlate well with increase aerobic output.

Don't believe me? Read this stupid thread that wasted half my afternoon.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=33012


Anyway, yeah power and strength work can easily be converted into endurance. Not vice versa. That's the whole point of strength biased metcons and heavy lifting with Gant's hybrid program.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:26 PM   #98
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Anyway, yeah power and strength work can easily be converted into endurance. Not vice versa. That's the whole point of strength biased metcons and heavy lifting with Gant's hybrid program.
So, essentially, the take-home lesson is:

The shorter, more efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize strength + add some work capacity training. The longer, less efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize work capacity training + add some strength.

Is that about right? Probably could be stated a lot more clearly and succinctly.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:30 PM   #99
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FYI tabata method draws a lot of energy from aerobic pathways. Same with HIIT. There's good reason why these correlate well with increase aerobic output.

Don't believe me? Read this stupid thread that wasted half my afternoon.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=33012

Anyway, yeah power and strength work can easily be converted into endurance. Not vice versa. That's the whole point of strength biased metcons and heavy lifting with Gant's hybrid program.

Ah yes, I did'nt bother posting in there.. you talk like exercise physiologist Steven. You should be one.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:53 PM   #100
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So, essentially, the take-home lesson is:

The shorter, more efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize strength + add some work capacity training. The longer, less efficient route to a higher work capacity + high strength is to emphasize work capacity training + add some strength.

Is that about right? Probably could be stated a lot more clearly and succinctly.
That's my conclusion.

As you know there's many people on the CF forums who disagree and argue that the best way to go is do CF scaled.

Now, for the people that absolutely need fitness quickly like police, military, firefighters, SWAT and the like it's definitely a better idea for them to go the fitness route (CF scaled). On the other hand, since strength is definitely harder to build than work capacity that's why I'd argue for strength (like SS) or strength biased work (Gant's hybrid program) over solely CF scaled for newer people.

At least if your goal is the high strength + high work capacity... where you're starting with low/intermediate strength and low/intermediate/high work capacity.
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