Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Training > Fitness, Strength & CrossFit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-13-2008, 07:28 PM   #101
Peter Dell'Orto
Member
 
Peter Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 122
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
That's my conclusion.
Okay, I'm glad I understood it correctly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
As you know there's many people on the CF forums who disagree and argue that the best way to go is do CF scaled.
Yeah. I was in one of those discussions and felt like I was bum-rushed for suggesting that maybe starting with a strength basis might be better than scaling. I couldn't really argue very well, because I'm a solo trainee arguing vs. actual certified coaches with clients, so they had the weight of experience and a client base.

Actually one of the reasons I don't post there anymore is I got to realize the answer to all my questions was "do the WOD on the front page 3-on-1-off, as RXed or scaled, eat strict Zone." Pretty much no matter what my situation was. Or my question was, actually.
I doubt I'd get a highly enthusiastic response for my mix of a compressed two-day "Westside for Skinny Bastards" and CF workouts and mixed ME/DE + metcon days on a rigid schedule, but my PRs are all the feedback I need at the moment. Maybe I'd have gotten them scaling CF too, but that just would just show that there is more than one answer.

(Editing later - sorry if that came off as unnecessarily or inappropriately bitter. It's not meant to be. I'm just trying to explain while I stopped posting there and why I appreciate the "multiple approach" methods I see here.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
At least if your goal is the high strength + high work capacity... where you're starting with low/intermediate strength and low/intermediate/high work capacity.
That makes sense to me. It seems like the approach needed is like any other athletic programming - start with the end point ("I need to do X, Y, and Z by this specific point in time") and work backwards to program. If you've got the space and time, you can afford to do strength-focused and work on metcon as needed to get there. If you don't have the time but need the work capacity (LEO, military, etc. as you mentioned), you might not be able to fit as much strength training in there.

I did this for my last fight - started with "I fight on this day" and worked back. I ended up with more metcon than I'd have otherwise because I knew I needed it and it was an easier thing to improve than my strength given the time limit I had. Now I'm coming back from an injury sustained in that fight (doh), so I'm doing a more strength-centered approach in order to maximize my fitness for the next one. As I get stronger and I get closer to the actual fight I'll change that focus. That's the plan, anyway. What I do on my workout days will owe a bit more to Gant's post at the top of this thread, I can tell you. It's similar to what I'm doing already but it's another tool for the toolbox.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
My workout log

Last edited by Peter Dell'Orto : 06-13-2008 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Bitching much?
Peter Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 09:08 PM   #102
Patrick Donnelly
Senior Member
 
Patrick Donnelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Don't believe me? Read this stupid thread that wasted half my afternoon.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=33012
And we appreciate every letter you typed in it.


If you really want to kill an entire day, read this thread for start to finish:
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=32282
Patrick Donnelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 09:21 PM   #103
Steven Low
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Donnelly View Post
And we appreciate every letter you typed in it.


If you really want to kill an entire day, read this thread for start to finish:
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=32282
I've already read that horrible, horrible thread.

CF forums have been getting on my nerves lately. I may have to step out for a couple of weeks, heh.

--------------


Peter that's great you're finding out what works for you.

It really seems that the more you learn, the more everything becomes simplified as in KISS (keep it simple stupid). Don't need anything too complex to progress like most of the programs out there (t-nation half the time as an example). Just eat well, sleep well, lift heavy and do some conditioning and you're golden. Maybe adjust a bit for specific goals, but no need to get fancy with supersets, massive increases in volume, isolation work or whatever else is "in" for the day.
__________________
Posts NOT intended as professional medical, training or nutrition advice.
Site // Bodyweight Strength Training Article // Overcoming Gravity Bodyweight Book

Last edited by Steven Low : 06-13-2008 at 09:23 PM.
Steven Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 10:09 PM   #104
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
CF forums have been getting on my nerves lately. I may have to step out for a couple of weeks, heh.
...and here I just joined back in them.....after a two year break....
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life

Last edited by Mike ODonnell : 06-13-2008 at 10:11 PM.
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 10:50 PM   #105
Peter Dell'Orto
Member
 
Peter Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 122
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Peter that's great you're finding out what works for you.
I'm still learning, but I'm also making progress at the same time. I'll probably never find out what works "best" for me, but at least I'll find out what works if I keep finding good information like I get here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
It really seems that the more you learn, the more everything becomes simplified as in KISS (keep it simple stupid).
You can make a lot of progress just by working hard. I find I need some complexity to get past my sticking points - can't just keep doing the same thing with a little more weight on the bar, or by doing just a few more reps. That's how I end up hurt - if I hit a brick wall I need to avoid the temptation of backing up and running at it again to see if it's still in front of me. But the core of it is simple - showing up and working hard. That solves at least 80% of the problems right there.

For the other 20% I find I need to muck around with my programming.

***

And those are ugly threads, but I did browse them and realize a) the CF affiliate I visited my last time in NJ, Crossfit Morris County, was a truly excellent deal. I stole an hour of deadlift technique work. STOLE it. And b) Mark Rippetoe's gym is damn cheap, too bad it's in WF.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
My workout log
Peter Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 07:07 AM   #106
Garrett Smith
Senior Member
 
Garrett Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,368
Default

I too have reduced my presence there yet again, but let's keep on topic guys....

Steven, your willingness to answer those threads is amazing. I like the "it's not aerobic" part. Um, the aerobic system is pretty much where we live...we add in the others as necessary...I had to stop reading it after that part as I wanted to keep those minutes of my life.

I've been trying to think of a more catchy name for the hybrid programming, haven't been able to come up with one yet...
__________________
Garrett Smith NMD CSCS BS, aka "Dr. G"
RepairRecoverRestore.com - Blood, Saliva, and Stool Testing
My radio show - The Path to Strength and Health
Garrett Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 12:17 PM   #107
David Stout
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
That's my conclusion.

As you know there's many people on the CF forums who disagree and argue that the best way to go is do CF scaled.

Now, for the people that absolutely need fitness quickly like police, military, firefighters, SWAT and the like it's definitely a better idea for them to go the fitness route (CF scaled). On the other hand, since strength is definitely harder to build than work capacity that's why I'd argue for strength (like SS) or strength biased work (Gant's hybrid program) over solely CF scaled for newer people.

At least if your goal is the high strength + high work capacity... where you're starting with low/intermediate strength and low/intermediate/high work capacity.
Steven I TOTALLY agree with what you said regarding the FIRE, LEO, MILITARY crowd. The randomized, non planned, GPP route probably serves them best.

I feel that maybe the programming approaches this thread discuss are a good option if the following apply to you (just some thoughts):
a. those of us who have never left the novice strength category
b. total beginners to any kind of fitness
c. those that have time (and the willingness) to take a methodical approach to the training through calculated programming
d. not a member of the group mentioned first (fire, leo, military)

So MAYBE we have two approaches here folks. The hierarchy postulated originally by CF (image below, copyright CF Inc.), and a second approach which places the priority to "weightlifting" and THEN metabolic conditioning. On a side note I'd like to see "recovery" included in my pyramid to boot.

David Stout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 02:56 PM   #108
Peter Dell'Orto
Member
 
Peter Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 122
Default

Two questions on the gymnastics warmup - what are 360s? Searches on "360" and "rings" are pulling up a huge amount of unrelated links for me, so I'm not clear what they are.

Second, is there a good video or technical explanation of the "back roll to support"?
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
My workout log
Peter Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 03:05 PM   #109
Timothy Holmes
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 221
Default

Peter, go to Drills and Skills (http://www.drillsandskills.com/skills/Rings/) for all you gymnastic movement description needs...

---------

So, using Gant's hybrid program to develop strength and power first, you will most likely develop your overall fitness quicker. Does there come a time when the focus should be back on metcon?
Timothy Holmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 06:47 PM   #110
Steven Low
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,091
Default

Peter:

"360s" is a Coach Sommer named skill available for viewing on one of his posted youtube vids.

http://gymnasticbodies.com/

Most other skills can be viewed on drillsandskills or through asking unless it's really obscure.

----------------------------

Timothy:

I would assume you "switch" back to metcon only when you want to. Or when your job requires it. Or for CF games.

Cause well if your goal isn't exactly "increased work capacity over broad modal and time domains" then you might not need the kind of more metcon biased programming that the mainpage WOD offers. Well, that and considering that Gant and Garrett are two people who have said that the traditional 3/1 CF mainpage WODs have the tendency to left them feeling beat up. This is especially the case with older folks who's recovery ability isn't that great. I actually know a lot of people that feel this way (the recovery aspect and feeling beat up) who have good diets and are not older either.

----------------------------

David:

Good observation. The traditional pyramid is as stated:

1. nutrition
2. metabolic conditioning
3. gymnastics
4. weightlifting and throwing
5. sport

I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.
__________________
Posts NOT intended as professional medical, training or nutrition advice.
Site // Bodyweight Strength Training Article // Overcoming Gravity Bodyweight Book

Last edited by Steven Low : 06-14-2008 at 06:56 PM.
Steven Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator