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Old 06-14-2008, 11:18 PM   #111
Mike ODonnell
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.
I'd say recovery is #2....I don't care how obvious it is...people just don't do it....they overtrain and then wonder why they don't get results. That and I put sport skills waaaay before metabolic conditioning....anyone can ride a bike and get better at it....not everyone has skills to excel at a particular sport....and you don't need super conditioning if your skills are higher. (assuming we are not talking about "fitness" as a sport)
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Old 06-15-2008, 12:11 AM   #112
Steven Low
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Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
I'd say recovery is #2....I don't care how obvious it is...people just don't do it....they overtrain and then wonder why they don't get results. That and I put sport skills waaaay before metabolic conditioning....anyone can ride a bike and get better at it....not everyone has skills to excel at a particular sport....and you don't need super conditioning if your skills are higher. (assuming we are not talking about "fitness" as a sport)
Well, sport depends on if you have a sport. My sport is/was gymnastics so obviously it's already higher than metabolic conditioning. But yeah, you're right. CF as a sport is different from using CF to improve in your sport.

Well, overtraining is only a consistent problem in the CF community from what I've seen. The vast majority of everyone else does maybe 3x a week workouts if full body at all.. generally without squats and DLs or does splits. Basically undertraining if there was such a thing. But yeah, recovery is vastly important. If we include sleep in recovery ultimately I might even say it should go to #1 instead of #2 (well, arguable but check out Robb Wolf's blog on sleep for some interesting stuff on that).

Personally, I have metcon like last on my list of stuff that I want to do just because I have no reason to have a huge work capacity. The strength I have gives me enough capacity as it is and nutrition, "new sports" occasionally, flexibility, skill work and such all trump metcon by far. Just not for me well at least right now.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:42 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.
I agree Steven BUT when I say recovery I don't mean just rest. I include in the term recovery the following:

1. Rest
2. Flexibility Work
3. Self Massage (with the Foam Roller for example)
4. Auxillary preventative work for the shoulders, grip, neck, ankles.

The auxillary work and flexibility work were two major themes emphasized in the book I mentioned in a way earlier post (Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia by John Jesse, 1974), and I put it all into one category for simplicity sakes.

Additionally since the category involves activities and rest that are so involved I thought them deserving of a spot.

BUT yeah, I like the ordering there in the list and ESPECIALLY the way you worded number 2!

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Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
I'd say recovery is #2....I don't care how obvious it is...people just don't do it....they overtrain and then wonder why they don't get results. That and I put sport skills waaaay before metabolic conditioning....anyone can ride a bike and get better at it....not everyone has skills to excel at a particular sport....and you don't need super conditioning if your skills are higher. (assuming we are not talking about "fitness" as a sport)
I agree Mike. I have to train at LEAST three days a week to even maintain my mediocre status in Gracie Jiu Jitsu. If I wanted to be competitive or really decent I need around 4-5 days a week. Sounds like a priority for me and other sports to boot.

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Well, sport depends on if you have a sport.
Well this was originally a template for "A Theoretical Hierarchy of Development of an Athlete." So I suppose it implies that the individual is prepping for sport, has a sport, trains in a sport, etc.

David

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Old 06-15-2008, 09:34 AM   #114
Steven Low
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Yeah, there's tons of stuff you can group under recovery work which make it almost more important than actual training sometimes. The one thing that kind of irks me about it is that generally you only need recovery work because of said training program in the first place so is it really more important?

But definitely if we are categorizing recovery as rest, flexibility, massage, heat/ice, soreness alleviation, prehab work and much more then it is definitely extremely important perhaps moreso than actual training most of the time if we consider training a constant.
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:42 AM   #115
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Well, sport depends on if you have a sport. My sport is/was gymnastics so obviously it's already higher than metabolic conditioning.
Of course the needs of each sport will differ by sport.....if your sport is triathlons, then you need better conditioning for running/biking/swimming....if your sport is baseball, you better be able to throw 95mph or hit a ball 400ft....loads of variables of course.

Yes recovery can be many things (sleep probably being the base of it).....heck even nutrition could fall under it....but probably better to keep that separate to keep the focus on how important it is.
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:19 PM   #116
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Remember that the point of that pyramid wasn't supposed to be "what's most important" or "what comes first," but specifically a hierarchy of "what is built on what." So sport is last because you apply everything else to sport, not so much apply sport to other things.

But I agree that metcon should come second to the top, and strength probably second to the bottom. Recovery can be a sea everything swims within... no training ever happens without recovery.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:43 PM   #117
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Brandon,
Very well said. Looks like this thread stayed very active... gotta catch up after having a great weekend down in Santa Barbara.

Great point and analogy on recovery. The all too often neglected variable.
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:17 AM   #118
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Ross uses dumbell versions of the O-lifts in II. One could easily sub in regular barbell versions, use a keg, etc. One thing i like about his manuals is he wants you to come away with knowledge to construct your own plans based on what you have available to you.
Anton,

That was what I was suggesting. Ross is keeping the tools as low tech as possible but if you have a wider spectrum of tools/skills available to you, use them.

Now obviously he has shown his methods work because he is no mean deadlifter but throw in a barbell clean & jerk or heavy back squat or intervals on the C2 and see what happens.

And your quite right, although his books explain things in minute detail his message is go and out and find what works for you. I see he has even put a sticky on his message board that says: "there is no Ross way".
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:16 AM   #119
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First, thanks guys for the links.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
I'd say the modified one may look something like:

1. nutrition
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport

I think recovery is implicit. Any good trainer knows that rest is when the body recovers from fatigue induced by a training program so it's always needed.
I like Brandon's idea that recovery is the overall circle that surround the pyramid. But I've seen lots of enthusiastic people run themselves into the ground, confident they could eat enough and train hard enough to overcome lack of recovery. Putting it in as #1 or #2 would make sense - if the true basis of strength and conditioning is from your base of eating and resting habits, then it needs to be there. Maybe:

1. Nutrition
2. Recovery
3. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
4. metabolic conditioning
5. sport

or combine the two and get:

1. Nutrition and Recovery
2. strength or power via gymnastics & weightlifting and throwing
3. metabolic conditioning
4. sport.

"Recovery" would encompass active and passive recovery - sleep, mobility/flexibility work, foam rolling/massage, meditation, any de-stressing activities (play, essentially). I think it's convincingly as important as nutrition. It's probably easier to out-train a so-so diet than it is to out-train lack of time off between hard workouts and lack of sleep. I've seen people get pretty strong and fit on diets I'd consider bad. But I've never seen someone with bad sleep habits or who can't stop working out daily get very far. Usually they fall prey to fatigue or injury, respectively.
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:22 AM   #120
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I posted a similar question over on CF before seeing this thread is asking my exact question. Given the pyramid that has developed with sport at the peak. How does this translate into your program design?

I've read SS and PP but it's not clear to me...I guess I'm just slow.

I'm sure it depends on the individual and the sport(s), but I'm interested in hearing your approaches.

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