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Old 06-10-2008, 11:21 PM   #61
Derek Weaver
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I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, but am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with more than 1x5 DL's even at a 5rm weight?

If I were constantly pulling 5x5 I'd surely break down, but at this point, I am trying to make room for a little more deadlifting. Maybe a light and a heavy day. I have had a short discussion on tailoring something like this for a TSC, and thus want to bring my DL up.
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Last edited by Derek Weaver : 06-10-2008 at 11:22 PM. Reason: Edit: The conversation I've had was with Steve (see page 2)
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:21 AM   #62
Leo Soubbotine
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Derek - how heavy are you pulling and how much do you weigh?
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:24 AM   #63
Peter Dell'Orto
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Originally Posted by Troy Archie View Post
In regards to your tabata experiences, would you only do one exercise per session or would you do 4 like "Tabata Something Else" but with only 4 intervals per exercise?
I do one or two exercises with the 4-rounds, going all-out to try to up the rep counts. I'll do it as a component of a larger workout. If I do it as a full metcon/stand-alone workout I do 3-4 exercises for 6-8 rounds and pace the reps with a goal of more total reps, not max per round.
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:58 AM   #64
John Alston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Weaver View Post
I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, but am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with more than 1x5 DL's even at a 5rm weight?

If I were constantly pulling 5x5 I'd surely break down, but at this point, I am trying to make room for a little more deadlifting. Maybe a light and a heavy day. I have had a short discussion on tailoring something like this for a TSC, and thus want to bring my DL up.
If you do a 5x5 you shouldn't do a 5rm. It's pretty nearly impossible to do so, by definition of a 5rm.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:21 AM   #65
Brandon Oto
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Deadlifts get harder and harder to recover from (and hence usually want less and less volume, up to the elite point where you're maybe truly deadlifting almost never) the stronger you get and the heavier you're pulling.

Edit: By the way, I hope we all keep plugging away with this stuff, and anyone interested in trying something similar has a go too. Maybe in a while we can all pool our findings together, see what worked and what doesn't, and present a collected set of templates for alternative metcon-diminished GPP programs in the PM Journal or wherever.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:12 AM   #66
Dave Van Skike
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Originally Posted by Derek Weaver View Post
I'm not trying to come off as a jerk, but am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with more than 1x5 DL's even at a 5rm weight?

If I were constantly pulling 5x5 I'd surely break down, but at this point, I am trying to make room for a little more deadlifting. Maybe a light and a heavy day. I have had a short discussion on tailoring something like this for a TSC, and thus want to bring my DL up.

On deadlift days, (basically every other saturday) we pull 2-3 sets of 5 working up to a 80-85% set of 5 which is close to a 5RM except you're fatigued so knock off 3% to 5%. Then we do extended deadlifts for sets of 5 or pull from blocks of varying heights. DL day amounts to 5 to 8 sets of heavy deadlifts. we follow this with rows, DB or BB. We'll do this for a week or two and then work down the reps, triple, doubles, until we're working up to a max single.

On non-Deadlift saturdays it's tire flips for reps, zercher squats and lots of upper back work, pull-ups, pulldowns, rows and shrugs.

So..sure, it's possible to do more than 1x5..but you need to work it carefully.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:55 AM   #67
Garrett Smith
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I've been trying to simplify these ideas/concepts in my head for the easiest understanding for myself (and especially if I'm going to explain it to others).

Basically, it is coming down to using the various exercise tools in their best applications.

For building plain lower body and posterior chain strength, there's low rep slow lifts.

For taking that strength and turning it into power, there's the OLs done in their favored low rep ranges.

For upper body strength, gymnastics training done in low rep ranges.

For improving work capacity and general ability to tolerate training discomfort, there is kettlebell training done in the GS style.

If one wants to do strongman stuff, do it using the proven training regimens.

For metcon, Tabatas of various calisthenics, chosen based on one's strength level and goals/weaknesses. Also, "bike, run, swim, row, hard and fast" [and SHORT]. If Tabatas and HIIT have been proven to work well for both aerobic and anaerobic purposes while not draining the trainee, why can't they be made the lion's share of metcon training? I can't see why not.

LSD training, IMO, sucks in general / entails excessive mechanical wear / is not healthy due to increased oxidation & inhalation of pollution / is boring. I do not see it adding much to health nor the fitness I'm interested in. IMO dump it unless it is a part of your sport. I am of the mind that many recent CF WODs are absolutely getting into LSD territory once they are lasting over 30 minutes. Chippers and heroes brutalize the adrenals.

Right tool for the right job, I say. Mixing and matching creates its own kind of fitness, absolutely (the question is, where do diminishing returns begin from mixing too much?). It also creates its own problems and injuries due to trying to use a tool for the wrong job. It would seem that combining modalities while utilizing them in their proper/intended way, such as in hybrid programming, is resulting indirectly in improved work capacity when tested together a la CF metcon WODs.

I guess the big question is whether or not metcon work capacity is something that should be trained, or merely tested occasionally to gauge progress. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Just thoughts...feel free to comment!
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:18 AM   #68
David Stout
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Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
I guess the big question is whether or not metcon work capacity is something that should be trained, or merely tested occasionally to gauge progress. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Just thoughts...feel free to comment!
I think that "metcon training" has its place still, just not the priority that some have given it.

I am reading and dissecting this book (it was actually been mentioned on this forum a while back) called Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia by John Jesse that is from 1974.

What's cool about the book is that he's included huge amounts of training modalities to opt from: barbells, dumbells, swingbells (a.k.a kettlebells), sandbags, gymnastics (holds, bodyweight, rings, etc.), etc. etc.

In the book he discusses the need for what he calls "total body strength." He notes:

Quote:
What is meant by total body strength? This term applies to all forms of strength including isometric (static) strength, explosive strength (as in the Snatch), slow dynamic strength as in a max effort shoulder press or the effort required to gradually for an opponents shoulders to the mat for a pin.

All types of total body strength are required by the wrestler. How much though? Science cannot answer the question, other than to say no athletic activity in itself develops the level of strength required to meet and overcome the emergency situations that arise in competition.
On the topic of "endurance" he delineates it into two categories: of general (circulo-respiratory) and muscular (local) endurance. My notes from this section:

Quote:
Success in wrestling requires high levels of general (circulo-respiratory) and muscular (local) endurance.

Strength endurance, as mentioned earlier, is the conditioning most overlooked by wrestlers.

Strength endurance training programs develop the wrestlers ability to tolerate oxygen debt (anaerobic endurance, lactate threshold, etc) and vastly improve the all important psychological quality, the “will to win.”
What's more is that he also makes a clear place in his programming for Flexibility and Agility work which are grossly overlooked by a large number of folks (IMO).

Sorry if that strayed off topic but I thought it was sooo cool to see all of this information in a book from the 70's.

Thanks,
David
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:44 PM   #69
Arien Malec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
I guess the big question is whether or not metcon work capacity is something that should be trained, or merely tested occasionally to gauge progress. I'm leaning toward the latter.
Nice post. I've got some follow-up questions on the quoted material, which I don't understand. Doing short metcons or GS-type KB work is training metcon work capacity, no? If I rotate a 5-minute KB snatch session into my metcon cycle, and I improve over time the number of snatches in that 5 minutes, I've increased metcon work capacity, no?

Or do you mean specifically training/testing endurance work capacity? (time in a 5/10K run/row, long metcon, etc.)
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Old 06-11-2008, 12:56 PM   #70
Derek Weaver
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Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
On deadlift days, (basically every other saturday) we pull 2-3 sets of 5 working up to a 80-85% set of 5 which is close to a 5RM except you're fatigued so knock off 3% to 5%. Then we do extended deadlifts for sets of 5 or pull from blocks of varying heights. DL day amounts to 5 to 8 sets of heavy deadlifts. we follow this with rows, DB or BB. We'll do this for a week or two and then work down the reps, triple, doubles, until we're working up to a max single.

On non-Deadlift saturdays it's tire flips for reps, zercher squats and lots of upper back work, pull-ups, pulldowns, rows and shrugs.

So..sure, it's possible to do more than 1x5..but you need to work it carefully.
Dave,
Thanks for this post here. This is really I guess what I was trying to get at, but didn't manage to communicate it.

This thread is easily the best I've seen on any forum in a very long time, by the way.
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