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Old 06-11-2008, 01:21 PM   #71
Brandon Oto
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Originally Posted by Arien Malec View Post
If I rotate a 5-minute KB snatch session into my metcon cycle, and I improve over time the number of snatches in that 5 minutes, I've increased metcon work capacity, no?
Yeah, but if that's all you do, it's probably mostly KB snatch work capacity. The CF model of variety is helpful here.
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Old 06-11-2008, 01:43 PM   #72
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Yeah, but if that's all you do, it's probably mostly KB snatch work capacity. The CF model of variety is helpful here.
The GS folks claim significant benefits from GS work across multiple aspects of fitness, but that's off topic (but perhaps only slightly).

My basic point was that "training metcon work capacity" is something that is built into doing short, intense metcons, so I was trying to understand what Garrett was saying in questioning whether metcon work capacity should be trained.

I guess my re-formulation of what I understand to be Garrett's question would be: "Glassman talks about increasing work capacity across broad time and modal domains -- the question is whether or not that requires training across broad time and modal domains"
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Old 06-11-2008, 02:08 PM   #73
Garrett Smith
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Originally Posted by Arien Malec View Post
Nice post. I've got some follow-up questions on the quoted material, which I don't understand. Doing short metcons or GS-type KB work is training metcon work capacity, no? If I rotate a 5-minute KB snatch session into my metcon cycle, and I improve over time the number of snatches in that 5 minutes, I've increased metcon work capacity, no?

Or do you mean specifically training/testing endurance work capacity? (time in a 5/10K run/row, long metcon, etc.)
1st question: Yes. I believe the main benefit of the short metcons is in keeping those metabolic pathways active, so that "testing" metcons are still do-able and do not cause extreme soreness. They are also fun in and of themselves, one of the reasons many are attracted to CF in the first place.

2nd question: Yes, particularly as related to work capacity in KB lifting, possibly towards other types of activities as well (I'd guess particularly those that are posterior-chain or press/jerk-related). How much one believes in the WTH transference effects of KBs is up to them.

3rd question: I wasn't specifically referring to endurance/LSD work capacity, however, noting that the hybrid programming is improving markers across the board one could guess that endurance capacity would be improved to some extent (along the lines of transference of HIIT and Tabata training to LSD).

Glad you liked the post.

Edit/add: Your re-formulation of my question is exactly the point I'm trying to get at. The Donny Shankle Grace transference would show that high strength/power can easily transfer to different time domains. Do these have to be trained or is more strength/power enough?

For example, Josh Everett didn't have years of training in CF and pretty much walked in and was a CF monster. He was strong and powerful when he came into it. I'm going to guess that AFT and OPT were as well. Strength and power take time and attention to build, endurance is so easy that fat people can do Ironmans, and metcon ability seems to be a derivative expression of strength and power that is easily built through specific training (or upregulating certain metabolic pathways), assuming a certain strength/power base.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:10 PM   #74
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Dave,
Thanks for this post here. This is really I guess what I was trying to get at, but didn't manage to communicate it.

This thread is easily the best I've seen on any forum in a very long time, by the way.

hope it was helpful. The one true thing I've learned is that the "duality of the Deadlift":

Deadlifts take a long time to recover from v. highish volume deadlift training can be very effective.
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:39 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Arien Malec View Post
I guess my re-formulation of what I understand to be Garrett's question would be: "Glassman talks about increasing work capacity across broad time and modal domains -- the question is whether or not that requires training across broad time and modal domains"
That's an excellent question.

If "CF is your sport" I'm not sure it's such an important question. But if you are exercising in order to improve your strength, fitness, work capacity, etc. for another sport, you don't want your training to eat into the sport. Even if CF is your sport, if you can improve your work capacity and up your times better with a different program layout...

In my experience, the short, hard metcons gave me improved work capacity, but the longer marathon ones ate into my MMA training time. So even if they were useful, they felt like a net negative.
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Last edited by Peter Dell'Orto : 06-11-2008 at 03:48 PM. Reason: Chopped off the end of my own train of thought
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Old 06-11-2008, 04:02 PM   #76
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Another benefit to "non-random", focused, progressive training is that it allows for form to be worked on under heavy weights on a more consistent basis. You know, like "practice"...

Heavy squatting, done maybe 1 or 2 times a month, does not a proficient heavy squatter make. Unless they were already a good squatter pre-random-GPP (see Josh Everett example above).
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:12 PM   #77
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Good points from Peter and Dr. G.

I think that a lot of people have good examples of losing strength in exchange either for or because of the longer duration metcon.

Dave,
Yes it helped. Once I completely work out my own programming that I'll be using to train for a TSC I'll post it up here to get it critiqued. Right now I am trying to figure out scheduling and overall training volume.

If only I had a place for a really big freakin' tire...
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Old 06-11-2008, 05:31 PM   #78
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I'm pretty sure that if you work up to a 2x bodyweight dip and pullup for example you should be able to do 30 MUs near 3-4 minutes if not better.

Same is true with Grace and a strong C&J.

The endurance needed to perform these even faster obviously needs to be trained for maybe a couple of weeks.... but it's obviously going to take a lot longer to build such strength/power.

-------

In any case about having to do broad time and modal domains for broad time and modal domain benefit... I think it depends on your exercise selection and programming. Well, in terms of exercises GHD situps might not transfer as well, but something like knees to elbows probably has a more "inherent" athletic benefit. Just like C&J/snatch should have a benefit on DLs/squats/press/OHS/etc. And, as far as programming goes, depends on the effort/intensity you can put into said movements over certain amounts of time, heh.

Would be an interesting experiment to do... Something like JUST oly + couple push & pull barbell/gymnastics exercises done with strength and short metcons. Then see how something like Cindy may or may not improve.
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:43 AM   #79
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Another benefit to "non-random", focused, progressive training is that it allows for form to be worked on under heavy weights on a more consistent basis. You know, like "practice"...
I can't claim to be very strong, but I know what works for me. I've found I make better progress - in metcons, in strength, in endurance, etc. - if I have both a non-random progressive training element and more varied training element. The scheduled, progressive element allows me to optimally schedule my workouts so I get enough time under the bar doing the lifts I feel I need. The non-scheduled elements let me cover the "everything else" that doesn't fit, from doing CF metcons to extra ME work, technique work, rehab movements, etc.

So currently I'm breaking up my training time between two full-body workouts done in a more traditional cyclical fashion, and two-three other days that mix ME work, metcon, endurance, strongman training (er, weakman training in my case), in whatever doses seem appropriate. I know that works for me, and Gant's templates are going to influence how I structure those days.

Like I said, I'm not some metcon monster and I'm particularly strong, but I can see from my own logs that I respond better to some structure and mixed ME/metcon than I do to metcon-heavy, constantly-varied training.

Plus it means less substitutions for lack of equipment.
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Old 06-12-2008, 06:46 AM   #80
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Good points from Peter and Dr. G.
Good company to get lumped in with, I tell you.

I'm glad I've been able to usefully contribute to this thread. By the way, I posted a link to it over at the EXRX forums, because I knew some folks there would find this really useful.

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If only I had a place for a really big freakin' tire...
I had to make do with a couple small tires:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ongman007s.jpg

All I can do is drag them, but 20kg is bad enough to sprint with. And the little kids in the neighborhood tend to jump on it while I'm dragging it for bonus weight.
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