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Old 07-11-2008, 08:45 PM   #21
Craig Loizides
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I enjoyed the article. I agree with you on EPOC. My opinion is that fat gain/loss is largely hormonally controlled in which case the main role of exercise is to help shift the hormonal balance in the right direction.

You wrote that little glycogen is used at lactate threshold pace and slower. I seem to remember reading some studies showing that lactate threshold pace used fat for only 30% of energy and the "fat burning zone" (50-60% VO2max) used roughly a 50-50 split. I can try to dig up some articles if your numbers are very different. Of course none of this affects any of the conclusions you make.

"If glycogen levels are low during exercise then there is a strong activation of IL-6 gene".
Is this a good reason to avoid replenishing carbs after every workout?

"It has been shown that recovery sleep after a period of exercise and sleep deprivation induces stronger GH production that normal."
Crazy thought here - should I cycle sleep duration in an attempt to induce a stronger response? I mean I already cycle calories, eating window, macronutrient ratios, workout intensities. Why not sleep? It sounds more harmful than beneficial, but I would have said the same thing about IF a year ago.

Additional questions (future article?):
This article focused on catecholamines, IL-6, and GH. What happens if we throw insulin, IGF-1, and testosterone (and others) into the mix? Which are most important for fat loss / muscle gain? What does this say about nutrition and exercise?

Thanks.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:27 PM   #22
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Loizides View Post
I enjoyed the article. I agree with you on EPOC. My opinion is that fat gain/loss is largely hormonally controlled in which case the main role of exercise is to help shift the hormonal balance in the right direction.
Agreed.

Quote:
You wrote that little glycogen is used at lactate threshold pace and slower. I seem to remember reading some studies showing that lactate threshold pace used fat for only 30% of energy and the "fat burning zone" (50-60% VO2max) used roughly a 50-50 split. I can try to dig up some articles if your numbers are very different. Of course none of this affects any of the conclusions you make.
Hmm, well certainly some glycogen is being used [in the muscles] and replenished with stores from the liver. But yes, free fatty acid mobilization from adipose tissue stores and probably some protein and nucleic acid breakdown are also involved. Biased towards the two former of course. Pretty much all energy pathways are mobilized as you know... it's not an "either or" situation just that I believe the studies I read said maximum fat burning was at that 60% range which is below lac threshold.

If it is an actual 50-50 split at 60% that's pretty interesting to know. I assume they were comparing little glycogen (cause I was just more or less repeating what the study told me) to total body glycogen stores. For example, in a marathon the body runs out of glycogen at approximately like 20-22 miles. So comparatively it's very little glycogen being used at 60% if you're not running for hours.

Quote:
"If glycogen levels are low during exercise then there is a strong activation of IL-6 gene".
Is this a good reason to avoid replenishing carbs after every workout?
I would say no as workout performance degrades with glycogen depletion. Well, this is only really relevant if you're training multiple workouts in a day really so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

This is important though with above lactate threshold exercise which rapidly depletes intramuscular glycogen stores such as your HIIT intervals, metcons, tabata, etc. as IL-6 is also responsible for the mobilization of fat stores.

Quote:
"It has been shown that recovery sleep after a period of exercise and sleep deprivation induces stronger GH production that normal."
Crazy thought here - should I cycle sleep duration in an attempt to induce a stronger response? I mean I already cycle calories, eating window, macronutrient ratios, workout intensities. Why not sleep? It sounds more harmful than beneficial, but I would have said the same thing about IF a year ago.
I'm not quite sure. I've had experiences with college and working out hard (training for iron cross along with sprinting and such) where I would workout hard... be sleep deprived because of exams and then take a long sleep and I would wake up with increased facial hair/acne/etc. signifying at least an "observation" spike in GH/test. This is, subsequently, how I test my body's hormonal output now by trying to hit overreaching effects such that I can induce faster facial hair growth & acne, lol.

In any case, I think it's easier (and possibly better) to induce such an effect with your training instead of trying to mess around with your recovery. One less thing to worry about and most people don't get enough sleep as it is. If you do decide to mess around with it keep a journal so we can all learn from your probably terrible experience.

Quote:
Additional questions (future article?):
This article focused on catecholamines, IL-6, and GH. What happens if we throw insulin, IGF-1, and testosterone (and others) into the mix? Which are most important for fat loss / muscle gain? What does this say about nutrition and exercise?

Thanks.
Test from what I've read is pretty correlative to GH.

Insulin is it's own thing. I, along with many others, try to keep it limited. It's not necessary for growth (see insulin knockout mice) and hardly as anabolic as GH or test. Plus, it's not specific to induction of nutrients into muscles and also does it for adipose tissue. On the other hand, GH and test both have lipolytic activity as you know so they're much better overall for your body (hence why when people look for an edge they supplement steroids/GH rather than insulin).

IGF-1 is primarily produced as a response to fluctuation GH levels. You can think of it as one of the mechanisms by which GH carries out it's strong anabolic activity.

Um, might try to follow up with something as I already said in this thread... not sure what on besides maybe test at the moment. Maybe a look into specific IGF-1 function... probably not insulin too much in depth as there is already tons and tons of info out there on insulin.
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Old 07-13-2008, 08:51 PM   #23
Craig Loizides
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Here's one article:
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0690.htm

At 50% VO2max fat provides about half the calories for the first hour, 70% after 2 hours and 80% after 3 hours.
At 75%, fat provides about 1/3.
At 89% (a little slower than 10k pace) fat provides none of the energy.
There is a pretty large variation between different people though.

I agree that some workouts should be done fully recovered and replenished, but I've been wondering lately if all should be. Can working out in a low glycogen state result in a larger hormonal response and if so does this outweigh the decreased performance in the workout? I'm wondering if this might be similar to overreaching to induce supercompensation.

I'll experiment with the sleep thing at some point and let you know how badly it goes.
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:51 PM   #24
Steven Low
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That's interesting about that 89% average. I suspect that the elite runners are the ones that can utilize both glycogen and fat (up to that 99% VO2max referenced) during those 10k runs. The more ways you can utilize energy the higher intensity you can sustain.

I actually wish they included more data with their study though such as the tendency of different demographics. Not to be racist or anything but if they did a comparison of like 5k runners to marathoners to your common layperson it would make the study more interesting. Plus, I'd like to know how the say 10k runners from Africa (Ethiopia & Nigeria especially) compare to say 10k runners from Europe, Asia, etc.

Anyway, with the glycogen depletion I mean it's kinda like doing a workout right after the other. The quality suffers because you reach "fatigue" earlier even if your muscles aren't that taxed. Well, they're taxed moreso metabolically than actual stress/damage put on them. I dunno I've done workouts when exhausted (physically) and they tend to end up poor in quality... and subsequent workouts have not had an extra boost. Now, something like planned overreaching may be beneficial, but it does not necessarily have to be glycogen depletion induced workouts; overreaching will work regardless with a supercompensatory effect.

Sounds good on the sleep thing. Definitely log your results.
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Last edited by Steven Low : 07-13-2008 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 08-07-2008, 02:41 AM   #25
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Found a more thorough look at IL-6 if anyone is interested. It's VERY dense though.

http://www.trainwiser.com/f109/inter...factor-5859/??

Summary:

Quote:
Conclusion

EXERCISE activates the immune system, which then cycles through an abbreviated version of the acute phase response. Damage to muscles results in IL-6 secretion, which signals the body to produce acute phase proteins. Depending on the amount of muscle damage, the acute phase response will terminate sooner or later, by the action of cortisol and anti-inflammatory cytokines.

IL-6 is the main mediator of muscle wasting. It may have some beneficial actions at the onset of the acute phase response, but chronically high IL-6 levels must be avoided for good health and optimum muscular development. We have a number of ways to accomplish that, from the simple use of antioxidants to specially designed antibodies. Through the use of these agents in coordination with training activity, we can effectively reduce the unnecessary muscle breakdown that normally follows intense exercise.
Basically, somewhat of what we already know for most hormones (well, this is cytokine but it acts similarly). Insulin is great after exercise, but not elevated levels all the time.. hence type II diabetes. More or less the same with IL-6 with it's "acute phase benefits" during exercise (lipolytic activity for one) but long term elevation (see: chronic STRESS) leads to muscle wasting just like with elevated cortisol levels.
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:47 AM   #26
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It was a fantastic article and I appreciated that it was well cited. I was in a debate on the judoforum on this topic or rather the importance for weight control of aerobic training vs anaerobic training. My opponent contested that since EPOC was over rated, and muscle mass was over rated, it didn't make sense for anyone to lost more weight doing anaerobic training. I countered with that being fine, but real life observations proved otherwise. I also came across an article by Alwyn Cosgrove that said the same thing, essentially, "We don't know why it works, but it's clear that it does."

Your article on neuroendocrine response has me thinking that may be the missing link, or at least another piece of the puzzle. Even if this turns out to be over rated at some point, a little hormonal response, a little EPOC, a little lean muscle mass, a little of whatever else is out there, all adds up.
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Old 08-07-2008, 12:12 PM   #27
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John:

Yeah, it's probably a little of everything. I do this it's of the components that hormones are probably the major component though... namely because small increases in GH/Test give HUGE body comp and performance changes (hence why people dope).
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Old 08-07-2008, 01:45 PM   #28
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John:

Yeah, it's probably a little of everything. I do this it's of the components that hormones are probably the major component though... namely because small increases in GH/Test give HUGE body comp and performance changes (hence why people dope).

reverse that.....HUGE amounts of exegenous therapy results in MINOR changes.....

huge amounts of dope and huge amounts of work result in huge amounts of body comp and performance changes.
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Old 08-07-2008, 01:59 PM   #29
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reverse that.....HUGE amounts of exegenous therapy results in MINOR changes.....

huge amounts of dope and huge amounts of work result in huge amounts of body comp and performance changes.
Down the road, sure. But drugs have the novice effect, too, especially on a young mesomorph with hot receptor sites.
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Old 08-07-2008, 02:03 PM   #30
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Well, I agree with that. Test/GH let you recover better (which is when all the great strength/cond changes take place). It's not like you can just take steroids without working out and get significantly bigger...

Kinda like trying to lose weight. Diet is the major factor (like training is in this case), but that little extra boost of training (anabolics in this case) is going to result in better composition changes.

-------------------


Anyway, I was reading Lyle's new blog:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/blo...us-physiology/

which was pretty good and related to this study (on cytokines like IL-6):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

Very interesting tie in to one of the possible causes of overtraining syndrome which does result in a sickness-like state as well as muscle wasting. Well, that and relating it all back to stress/cortisol on both the mind and the body.

Crazy how everything is tying together (at least in my mind). Hopefully you guys too.
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