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Old 07-09-2008, 07:13 PM   #21
Jordan Glasser
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it is scaled and should be modified. In beginners, so that one can learn how to safely execute the movements. And, it is generally accepted that specializing will be necessary in programming to help one's deficiencies, or, for those who are more advanced and seek improvement. ie, gymnastics or olympic weightlifting.

One thing I wanted to say earlier in this thread is that the following the WOD leading up to the games was a death trap. Anyone seriously competing should have been considering tapering before the event. But the WOD's leading up to the event were up difficult and taxing. That alone could have made an impact on results.
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:11 PM   #22
Chris Bate
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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Well, since we kinda got off topic, let's just say the main question is this:

Should CF main page programming be modified (or have different ability levels.. kind of like scaling -- possibly more strength work for beginners for example) such that it would "obtain" the ability to make people more fit in the same given amount of time as the previous main page programming? Why or why not?
I think the inclusion of a scaling system similar to BrandX's would be a very reasonable addition (minus all the funny names). I don't see many reasons NOT to, and the benefits would be many:

1) From a marketing standpoint, it's easier for people to just jump right in.
2) Keeps beginners safe.
3) Allows some sort of progression (you're "Level one" at first then "level two", etc)

IMO, the more you can individualize the program and address weaknesses the faster people will become more "fit". An easy way to do this is simply say "beginners do X and intermediates do Y". Granted, people will have different needs at each level, but it's something to work off of.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:08 PM   #23
Liam Dougherty Springer
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This is getting really philosophical, lol.
sorry I guess I got kinda silly with my last post. Crossfit has really changed my athletic ability in such an excellerated mannor I am a little bit fantical.

Steven i agree that beginers without a strength back ground may need a period of focus in strength training that is what i am finaly doing after 8 months of CF main page and always having to scale the lifts or be held back by my failiers.


When reading the CF journal I do get the impression they expect some straying from the main page for developement of special skills or improving weaknesses do to the content of many of their articles.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:56 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Liam Dougherty Springer View Post
sorry I guess I got kinda silly with my last post. Crossfit has really changed my athletic ability in such an excellerated mannor I am a little bit fantical.

Steven i agree that beginers without a strength back ground may need a period of focus in strength training that is what i am finaly doing after 8 months of CF main page and always having to scale the lifts or be held back by my failiers.


When reading the CF journal I do get the impression they expect some straying from the main page for developement of special skills or improving weaknesses do to the content of many of their articles.
Liam,

I am curious, how has CF changed your athletic ability? What sports did you do before CF and what has changed in those sports? I am not trying to be condescending or anything, i am just wondering.
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Old 07-09-2008, 11:41 PM   #25
Derek Weaver
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When reading the CF journal I do get the impression they expect some straying from the main page for developement of special skills or improving weaknesses do to the content of many of their articles.
Liam,
In one of the CFJ's, I think it was the one on tumbling and referenced some old time navy handbook (which looked awesome by the way) they noted that their athletes at CFHQ will spend time on a prolonged warm up to help develop these skills.

The problem though, is that many people don't have time for much more than the CF WOD (well, nearly everyone has at least more time, they just don't realize they do).

Also, like you said, not many people jump in with the necessary strength. Thus they are scaling and adjusting for a very long time. I just read another post by Coach Rut on the CF Total article's comments noting that his MEBB variation seems to do the trick just fine in terms of getting an athlete ready for CF "as rx'd".

I would actually start everyone on either SS or MEBB depending on where they were. Underweight and very weak athletes would go the SS route. Those who were close and could benefit from a nice mix would get the MEBB route.

Once they were at the advanced level for strength, they'd go as rx'd if that was their interest.

Just my take on the whole thing.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:35 AM   #26
Peter Dell'Orto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
Should CF main page programming be modified (or have different ability levels.. kind of like scaling -- possibly more strength work for beginners for example) such that it would "obtain" the ability to make people more fit in the same given amount of time as the previous main page programming? Why or why not?
I think it would benefit from:

- scaling, like BrandX, on the main page, in the WOD posting. Some guidelines where "what you should be scoring to move up" would help. Linda is a good example - you need to be able to 10-rep 1.5x your bodyweight in a DL, bw bench, and .75 bw clean to have a real shot at doing it as RXed. But what's a good guideline for someone new to CF to know where to start it? What's sufficient? You must scale if you can't do it as RXed but it's hard to know what to scale it to until you've tried it a few times. That makes entry sub-optimal...you're pretty unlikely to just estimate correctly what to scale it to. Knowing when to scale up is important, too. If I can nail Fran in 3 minutes (I can't), is getting it to 2:59 better than scaling up the weight on the thrusters and putting on a vest for the pullups and taking longer? Which is more in line with the aims of programming that particular workout?
Can't expect a beginner to know. I don't know and I'm not a newbie.
Simplefit is a good example of this - 8 levels, advice on how to judge when to change levels, and a couple levels of "advanced" programming for people who top out on the introductory workouts. Good stuff, and I think that's a useful model to examine.

- more of a strength-and-technique focus for beginners. I wouldn't mind seeing Starting Strength workouts in there, so you're telling beginners "Either do Grace, or if you're on the starting SS workout do workout A today." Or an MEBB approach integrated into the main page or a sub-page. It's easier to do this combined with scaling. You don't feel like a workout wimp if you're doing some real strength work/gymnastic work and then doing "Grace" with a piece of PVC. You do if you're coming from another workout background and you're expected to just do 30 PVC C&Js and call it a day.

- More on deloading and intensity cycling. I think people burn out and get hurt because it's easy to push too hard for too long. Direct and repeated advice about when to have easy weeks (and how to do them!) would go a long way. I don't think everyone can sustain 3-1 forever. Knowing that actual rest is beneficial and improves your results long-term is critical, I think. Taking a day off or doing a week of low-intensity work isn't falling off the wagon or bagging a workout, it's taking care of your long-term success.

I dunno, maybe I'd complicate it too much. But I think there is already much of this complication out there, it's just not very accessible. If you just go for the main page WOD and follow it rigorously, you're potentially cruising for injury/exhaustion, hitting sub-optimal results from either scaling too much or not enough (up or down), and missing out better long-term results by focusing on strength early if you're lacking it. In my opinion, anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I like crossfit, I did the main page WOD as best I could (lots of equipment and running subs...) for a while. It helps inform my training routine and I use many of the "Girls" as workouts. I just think it's a little complex and potentially problematic for new trainees. I happily tell my friends to go to the Crossfit affiliate near where I used to live - I know Rob Isza will do right by them. I'm very happy to show them simplefit.org, and say "go there and do that." But crossfit, well, unless someone is a serious trainer I worry they'll be in over their heads trying to keep up, knowing how to scale and what to sub, etc. It's a significant investment in effort, where I know something like simplefit is already scaled, and in-person training will have the benefit of a coach doing hands-on teacher.

Anyway, just my opinion. Hope that's useful and reasonably on-topic, because it sure ain't short.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:03 AM   #27
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From what I can gather, most people following the Main Page simply warmup and do the WOD, which currently includes zero skill work (the WOD doesn't count) and the most basic of gymnastics. Surely, it could be included.

I remember sometime ago (not sure how long) there was a WOD posted: 'Devote one hour to handstand practice.' Does anyone else remember that?

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I like where you are going, Peter. Makes perfect sense to me. 'Tis hard to implement though, so many variables and guidelines...

Regarding affiliates and handling of clients, a class is not just a supervised WOD.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:05 AM   #28
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Peter -

Excellent response. I seriously doubt the ideas you presented in that last post would "complicate" things too much considering the already vast integration of different training modalities often in one workout (Oly lifts/powerflifts/ gymnastics, etc..).

I personally believe that more of a "programming" element would benefit the CFHQ WOD greatly. Now, that's my OPINION. I had been performing the CF WOD religiously since January of this year. I began with a decent strength base, for example I had a 425 unbelted raw DL and a 170 SOHP. Those numbers have dropped dramatically and my metcon times, although they improved for some time after beginning, have also stalled out. Essentially, instead of deloading or reducing intensity, etc., I just kept hammering away, and ended up burned out. After reading about Gant's hybrid programming and some similar ideas on strengthmill.com, I'm restructuring a program for myself with a pre-programmed strength emphasis and 3 short, intense CF metcons/week (performed after weight training sessions). After reading Rip's Practical Programming book (about a dozen times over), I realize that my recovery was lacking and that, although "routine is the enemy" according to Glassman, having progressive-strength goals is most likely a good thing, at least for me.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:39 AM   #29
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We have a new diagnostic paradigm, Delusional A and Delusional B.

Delusional A: Crossfit is the optimal fitness program for everyone.

Delusional B: Individuals can develop a program for "optimal" fitness that is better than the CFHQ WOD.

I am delusional B.

Timothy Holmes:

I remember that WOD, "devote one hour to handstand practice." I'd guess that was about 2004 or 2005. I also remember "virtual shovelling." That was good for a laugh.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:03 AM   #30
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Liam,

I am curious, how has CF changed your athletic ability? What sports did you do before CF and what has changed in those sports? I am not trying to be condescending or anything, i am just wondering.
I will jump in about how CF has changed my athletic ability. I am a recreational soccer player. I play in the competitive division of my suburb's park district. I have been following the CFHQ WODs for a year. In the past 3 months, I have begun moving into a hybrid program based on the MEBB. Rather then moving daily between CF, ME, Oly lifts, I do a week of CFHQ WODs, a week of slow lifts, a week of CFHQ, then a week of CA WODs. I do not necessarily follow a 4 week template, just move on when I feel like it. I post under the name x66F.

CF does train across broad time and modal domains. When you do a WOD you are moving through all 3 energy pathways and through all ranges of muscle endurance..max effort, low rep, high rep etc. In soccer you do the exact same thing. I have seen my ability to explode off the ball improve, this is quickness. Also, my ability to do a full effort run down of the ball, followed my another and then another improve (recovery). My agility has improved. I think this is due to learing coordinate movements of the olifts, gymnastics and jumping rope. I have experienced no cramping or muscle pulls or any other injuries in the last 3 seasons, it is amazing how many adult men playing sports "pull" muscles. Finally, I have scored more goals since starting CF.

In defense of CF, while the following is said alot "just do the WOD" almost everyone I know associated with CF (local affiliates and reading all the journal articles) advocates the WODs being the center of a training session, but not the entire training session. A CFHQ WOD session for me (and I believe most) is a warm-up, a few minutes on skill development and then the WOD. If someone just does the WOD and only the WOD, they will never be able to do many of them "as Rx'd". A few examples: I do not know of anyone who has done a muscle-up without practicing them. Another move is the double under. Both of these are main CFHQ exercises and someone has to devote time and effort aside from "just doing the WOD" to learn them.
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