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Old 07-15-2008, 06:17 PM   #1
Kevin Perry
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Default High Carb diets, yeah

not sure where to categorize this but thought you guys would find some humor in it.

As some of you may or may not know, im in a Personal Training course in college which is eventually going to be a two year and 4 year program combining Personal training and Physical Therapy since there is a slow push to start regulating Personal Trainers in South Carolina. Anyways, some of the methods being taught to us in diet are not surprising to say the least. I was reading a chapter in the text and these quotes popped up about Carbohydrate consumption.

These quotes come from the text Concepts of Fitness and Wellness, Seventh Edition it's updated for 2008

"Increasing carbohydrates in the diet is more desirable than supplementing protein or consuming higher amounts of fat."

"Carbohydrates have been unfairly implicated as a cause of obesity" (on insulin)

"Complex carbohydrates ( bread, pasta, rice) on the other hand, are broken down more slowly and do not cause the same affect on blood sugar. They contribute valuable nutrients and fiber in the diet and should constitute the bulk of a person's diet."

"excess calories are only problematic if caloric intake is larger than caloric expedenture. Carbohydrates are the body's preferred form of energy for physical activity, and the body is well equipped for processing extra carbohydrates. Athletes and other active individuals typically have no difficulty burning off extra energy energy from carbohydrates. Sugar consumption, among people with an adequte diet, is also not associated with major chronic diseases."


honestly im not surprised but I actually find very little in the section on promoting Vegetables and fruits over bread, pasta, ect.

Whats funny about this? nothing, I actually don't care about it because it's not my problem and im gonna do my own thing when im through with the program. Whats gonna burn me is come the next couple semesters we have to train a client and help them loose weight and eat better, etc and im gonna get burned when I promote a low carb, moderate protein and fat diet and a training program based on funtional fitness over step aerobics and isolation exercises.

Yeah, I hav'nt posted anything in a while. Just thought I would contribute something.
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Old 07-15-2008, 06:25 PM   #2
Mike ODonnell
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depressing....what year was the book printed just out of curiosity....
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Old 07-15-2008, 06:39 PM   #3
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im guessing the published year is 1996, updated every 2 years. Guess thats not surprising either. Here I thought we would at least be given some updated research?
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Old 07-15-2008, 06:53 PM   #4
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In terms of your client that you'll have to train, you'll need to ask your instructor (the person who is grading you) whether they want you to follow the diet that you are taught or if you can modify in ways that you know will help the client to feel better and lose more bodyfat.

Same thing with the training.

Eyes on the prize. Get the grade, get the cert, then start rocking the boat.
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Old 07-18-2008, 04:41 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin_Perry View Post
These quotes come from the text Concepts of Fitness and Wellness, Seventh Edition it's updated for 2008

"Increasing carbohydrates in the diet is more desirable than supplementing protein or consuming higher amounts of fat."
True - Protein intakes above ~1.8g/kg/day are simply oxidised for energy and as a normal balanced diet provides more than this amount (assuming calorie intake is adequate) supplemental protein is unnecessary. Athletes with heavy training loads are far better off eating more paleo carbs (not grains) rather than fat if they need to increase their calorie intake as this increases their antioxidant intake as well as helping to improve their acid/alkali balance.

Quote:
"Carbohydrates have been unfairly implicated as a cause of obesity" (on insulin)
True - Excess calories from any source will make you fat.

Quote:
"Complex carbohydrates (bread, pasta, rice) on the other hand, are broken down more slowly and do not cause the same affect on blood sugar. They contribute valuable nutrients and fiber in the diet and should constitute the bulk of a person's diet."
True - but only if you replace grains which are acid forming and lacking in antioxidants with paleo carbs ie. berries, fruits, shoots, roots, tubers etc.

Quote:
"excess calories are only problematic if caloric intake is larger than caloric expedenture. Carbohydrates are the body's preferred form of energy for physical activity, and the body is well equipped for processing extra carbohydrates. Athletes and other active individuals typically have no difficulty burning off extra energy energy from carbohydrates. Sugar consumption, among people with an adequte diet, is also not associated with major chronic diseases."
True. (except for the bit about sugar)
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Old 07-18-2008, 04:07 PM   #6
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Darryl,

the point I as getting at is that the book and my class are huge advocates of a high carbohydrate diet. In fact, the other day when we were breaking down the carb/protein/fat ratios.. my instructors were highly against my high fat, high protein, low carb approach.. in fact, they recommended a diet in the 65% Carb, 15% protein, and 20 % fat range...

I don't know about you, but im not an endurance runner and I already know that my body does not react well with high carb diets, I get very sick with them and it affects the severe insomnia I already have. And im sure you know thats a high carb diet and low protein does not do much wonder for someone who weightlifts a lot.

Of course their proposal is that this kind of diet is ideal for clients whose interest is in weight lost. I'll be the first to admit that im no expert in this but that doesn't seem like it would be the case in my eye with the exception of calories in vs out. I just don't see how a high carb diet is effective for insulin sensitivity. ( I've been reading your blogs MOD, trying to get used to the dozens of new exercise science lingo)

Of course I honestly don't care, they don't share the same views that a lot of us have on diet and training so i'll only give them enough attention to get the cert, etc and move on. Not gonna let it spoil my day.
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:30 AM   #7
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Kevin,

Have you considered the possibility that your instuctors are against your high fat, high protein, low carb diet and recommend a diet of 65% Carbs, 15% protein, and 20 % fat because they know more about nutrition than you?

To understand those macronutrient ratios you need to put them into a paleolithic context and that means going back to Africa circa 50,000bc as that's where our basic biochemistry was formed.

Protein
First your protein requirements are determined by your training load, volume, intensity etc not the type of exercise so it's not unusual for endurance athletes to have higher protein requirements relative to their bodyweight than weightlifters or bodybuilders.
As the daily lives of our gather-scavenger forebears required a high degree of pyhsical activity and fitness we can assume that their protein requirements were similar to those of modern athletes ie. 1.2 - 1.8g/kg/day which works out at around 15 - 20% of calories. It's impossible to study exactly what paleolithic humans were eating but skeletal remains and coprolites suggest that the diet in Africa 50,000 years ago was similar to that of modern hunter-gatherers such as the !Kung San who eat on average 150g of meat per day which works out at around 1g/kg/day for the average 50kg bushman. This is probably a little less than our forebears ate and can be explained by overhunting limiting resources but at more then twice the RDA it can still be considered a high protein diet and is certainly more than adequate.

Fat
Contrary to popular belief stone age humans weren't great hunters and we didn't really start developing the technology required to hunt big game in large numbers until around 20 - 30,000 years ago when we started throwing pointy sticks at big game which eventually led to bow hunting. For most of our history though we were scavenger-gatherers and most of our fat and protein came from either scavenging from predator kills or from small easily caught game such as reptiles, fish, birds, insects and eggs or from plant foods such as nuts and seeds. None of these foods provided a great deal of fat though so consequently we never developed a need for more than the relatively small amount of fat we need for essential functions.
Again this fits in with the diets of contempory hunter-gatherers living in Africa who eat a low fat diet.

Carbohydrates
Carbohydrates from roots, shoots, tubers, fruit, berries etc made up the bulk of the diet of paleolithic humans as they were the most readily available source of energy on the African continent 50,000 years ago plus they had the major advantage of providing energy without having risk life and limb chasing a pride of lions away from it's kill.
Studies of human coprolites (fossilized faeces) show that early humans were eating as much as 120g of fibre per day clearly indicating that they ate huge amounts of plant food which would have provided a lot of carbohydrates as well as high levels vitamins, minerals and antioxidants. Today the !Kung San remain lean fit and healthy throughout their lives while deriving around 70 - 80% of their food intake (by weight) from gathered foods which works out at around 60% of calories from carbs.

I could go on and on about how the largely plant based diet of our forebears affects our biochemistry but I'll stick to the simple fact that our bodies need to remain slightly alkaline (ph of around 7.4 if memory serves) and as fat has a nearly neutral PRAL value the only diet that makes sense in terms of balancing the acid load produced by animal foods (and grains if you're inclined towards the neolithic) is one with a plant to animal food ratio of 70 - 80% plants and 20 -30% animals and when you break that down into macronutrient ratios you end up with ~65% carbs, 15% protein and 20% fat.

Last edited by Darryl Shaw : 07-19-2008 at 05:51 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-19-2008, 05:53 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
I could go on and on about how the largely plant based diet of our forebears affects our biochemistry but I'll stick to the simple fact that our bodies need to remain slightly alkaline (ph of around 7.4 if memory serves) and as fat has a nearly neutral PRAL value the only diet that makes sense in terms of balancing the acid load produced by animal foods (and grains if you're inclined towards the neolithic) is one with a plant to animal food ratio of 70 - 80% plants and 20 -30% animals and when you break that down into macronutrient ratios you end up with ~65% carbs, 15% protein and 20% fat.
So curious....how does a moderate carb (plant based, not grain) like 30%, moderate protein of 20% and higher fat diet of 50%+ not balance ph out levels? Fat like you said is neutral and you are eating more alkaline sources of food than acidic.

That and you have such things as the Inuit paradox, a tribe surviving on fat and protein (high fat) with no high levels of heart disease or cancers. Only when processed foods/sugar/grains were introduced did their health go down very quickly....as inflammation is the real issue spured on by high insulin.

I understand the concerns for optimal pH (but the body can regulate and balance as well as an overly alkaline pH is not good either)....but if one's carb sources are only plant based....eat as much veggies and fruit as you like...well assuming that one is active and doesn't have weight issues...which is not the lifestyle or condition of people today. The diets of a tribe that was active all day, hunted for food and didn't have obesity as an issue is going to have to be modified for the non-active person of today that already suffers from insulin resistance.

Telling the general public that has no nutritional clue (think a V8 is a vegetable, Cheerios are good for the heart, and Wheat bread should be served with every meal.....which means most of their carbs come from acidic grain sources and worsen the ph equation) to eat most of their diet from carbs is like giving the keys to your new porsche to a 16 yr old....a disaster waiting to happen. Isn't that how we got in the mess we are in today with the advice of more carbs (because who would want to burn fat for energy) and low fat eating?
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Last edited by Mike ODonnell : 07-19-2008 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 07-19-2008, 06:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Have you considered the possibility that your instuctors are against your high fat, high protein, low carb diet and recommend a diet of 65% Carbs, 15% protein, and 20 % fat because they know more about nutrition than you?
So when overweight nutritionists and doctors come to me for advice on how to eat to lose weight....seems a little silly I would want to listen to anything they have to say on what they learned about nutrition.

That and %s are useless without the majority of attention focused on total calories.
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Last edited by Mike ODonnell : 07-19-2008 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:36 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Kevin,

Have you considered the possibility that your instuctors are against your high fat, high protein, low carb diet and recommend a diet of 65% Carbs, 15% protein, and 20 % fat because they know more about nutrition than you?

To understand those macronutrient ratios you need to put them into a paleolithic context and that means going back to Africa circa 50,000bc as that's where our basic biochemistry was formed.

Protein
First your protein requirements are determined by your training load, volume, intensity etc not the type of exercise so it's not unusual for endurance athletes to have higher protein requirements relative to their bodyweight than weightlifters or bodybuilders.
As the daily lives of our gather-scavenger forebears required a high degree of pyhsical activity and fitness we can assume that their protein requirements were similar to those of modern athletes ie. 1.2 - 1.8g/kg/day which works out at around 15 - 20% of calories. It's impossible to study exactly what paleolithic humans were eating but skeletal remains and coprolites suggest that the diet in Africa 50,000 years ago was similar to that of modern hunter-gatherers such as the !Kung San who eat on average 150g of meat per day which works out at around 1g/kg/day for the average 50kg bushman. This is probably a little less than our forebears ate and can be explained by overhunting limiting resources but at more then twice the RDA it can still be considered a high protein diet and is certainly more than adequate.

Fat
Contrary to popular belief stone age humans weren't great hunters and we didn't really start developing the technology required to hunt big game in large numbers until around 20 - 30,000 years ago when we started throwing pointy sticks at big game which eventually led to bow hunting. For most of our history though we were scavenger-gatherers and most of our fat and protein came from either scavenging from predator kills or from small easily caught game such as reptiles, fish, birds, insects and eggs or from plant foods such as nuts and seeds. None of these foods provided a great deal of fat though so consequently we never developed a need for more than the relatively small amount of fat we need for essential functions.
Again this fits in with the diets of contempory hunter-gatherers living in Africa who eat a low fat diet.

Carbohydrates
Carbohydrates from roots, shoots, tubers, fruit, berries etc made up the bulk of the diet of paleolithic humans as they were the most readily available source of energy on the African continent 50,000 years ago plus they had the major advantage of providing energy without having risk life and limb chasing a pride of lions away from it's kill.
Studies of human coprolites (fossilized faeces) show that early humans were eating as much as 120g of fibre per day clearly indicating that they ate huge amounts of plant food which would have provided a lot of carbohydrates as well as high levels vitamins, minerals and antioxidants. Today the !Kung San remain lean fit and healthy throughout their lives while deriving around 70 - 80% of their food intake (by weight) from gathered foods which works out at around 60% of calories from carbs.

I could go on and on about how the largely plant based diet of our forebears affects our biochemistry but I'll stick to the simple fact that our bodies need to remain slightly alkaline (ph of around 7.4 if memory serves) and as fat has a nearly neutral PRAL value the only diet that makes sense in terms of balancing the acid load produced by animal foods (and grains if you're inclined towards the neolithic) is one with a plant to animal food ratio of 70 - 80% plants and 20 -30% animals and when you break that down into macronutrient ratios you end up with ~65% carbs, 15% protein and 20% fat.

Simply put. I don't exactly agree with thir nutritional input anymore than I agree with the Government's food pyramid. After all, these are the same people telling me I need to have my shoulders back and down when doing a one legged squat arm row on the machine?

Sorry but im not here spouting my young "I know more than my instructors" crap. But when they are personally telling me I shouldn't be on a low carb diet (i.e. paleo) because it's unhealthy, just a fad, and because the body has to constantly have carbs as it's energy source. Im not discrediting them, maybe they should be more open to research and the overwhelming obesity rates?
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