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Old 12-18-2006, 05:13 AM   #11
Mike ODonnell
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Originally Posted by kevin mckay View Post
I heard someting about a problem with all the vitamin d in clo synthetic or something? not sure why but them on my bottle of Carlson's I noticed they stated it did not contain any D or A like it was a selling point? Does anybody have info on what the deal is with that?
Hmmm, Did not notice that...as I use Fish Oil not CLO (which is lower in Vit A & D anyways). I'm guessing there has been a lot of bad press going around about too much Cod Liver Oil will lead to Vit A & D in toxic levels?? Dunno......just an assumption....but if that was the case, they still make Fish Oil so why care about the CLO?
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Old 12-18-2006, 05:28 AM   #12
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Something a Charles Poliquin Trainer Level I noted in the replies to that article is that they suggest taking Vitamin E along with high dosing of fish oil because that much fish oil depletes Vitamin E.

Also they recommend the 30-45grams for one month and then after that you can cut back to 15-20 grams.

One last thing he mentioned is that they recommend changing the type of fish oil every 7-8 days because your body adapts to fish oils very readily.

Interesting stuff, I always find his articles a bit thought provoking. I am looking into the Flameout too, Mike if you try it out mind giving a review here? The only thing I don't like about it is the price - 25.95 for 22 servings of 3grams EPA/DHA so to get the 6g's/day I want I'd have to get almost 3 bottles a month (which the wife would be very strong in her disapproval of!)
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Old 12-18-2006, 06:05 AM   #13
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Check out Advocare's "Omegaplex" VERY HIGH in DHA and EPA and only 12.95 for 90 caps.

Green Pastures also makes some awesome CLO. Dr. G recommends.
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Old 12-18-2006, 11:22 AM   #14
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I've heard that about the Vit E, something about the oxidation of the fish oil requires or uses more of the antioxidants from Vit E. I've seen some fish oil include extra E in their products. I guess it depends how much you get through your diet anyways and if you need to supplement more. Also looks like Vit E can enhance the effects of fish oil (maybe through the less oxidative damage?)
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/6/602

As for the amount you need to take, thats why I always like the liquid better...easier to get more grams in without having to deal with pills. Plus it's hard to really trust what most people put on their labels since it is not regulated. I trust the Carlsons and Nordic Naturals because they were checked by a 3rd party consummer lab. Know nothing of where Flameout gets their oil from...or Advocare so I would be hesistant to really switch so quickly. Also I dont think you really can notice a huge difference right away from fish oil unless you were already in serious inflammation or had ADD or some other issue in which dramatic improvements would be noticed. Will have to pay more attention when I visit the health store next time as they have a whole row of fish oil supplements.
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Old 12-18-2006, 06:43 PM   #15
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Sears recommends upwards of 20-30g of EPA/DHA per day for hard training athletes and folks with autoimmune issues. Obviously Poliquin recommends a pretty good sized whallop. I've run on ~10g/day for a long time. I certainly noticed an improvement in recovery and sleep in the beginning. I've been taking it so long now I'm not as aware of the effects. I may try bumping that up to 15-20g for a month or two and see what happens.

Too much? One can have excessive bleeding and bruising with too much, not sure how to track that other than some of the flow charts Sears offers regarding eicasanoid status...turds floating or sinking and stuff like that. There is also the EPA/AA blood test...which is quite spendy but Sears highly recomends it.

EPA/DHA-Ideal ratio. Interesting question. I'll run that by Cordain and see what he says. Ultimately most n-3, get converted to DHA...I think. I'm not sure if the EPA is a signaling agent and what roles it plays seperate from DHA...although DHA does appear to be the money shot, where n-3 fatty acids are concerned.

CLO-excessive Vit A&D?- Dave Werner and I talked about this a bit...and Art Devany had a bit on this topic. I think the potential for vit A/D toxicity is perhaps over stated unless one is doing very high doses of CLO. I'd just use it for some of the daily n-3's. Also it appears vit A needds are elevated with increased protein intake. Interesting stuff...mor eto investigate!
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Old 12-18-2006, 07:44 PM   #16
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One can have excessive bleeding and bruising with too much

Anyone know the mechanism behind this? Does it reduce platelet count or is it something else? I ask because some recent bloodwork showed my platelets a bit lower than they should be, and I didn't get a chance to ask the doctor. I take a tablespoon a day.

Last edited by Mark Gebhard : 12-18-2006 at 07:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-18-2006, 08:27 PM   #17
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Sears recommends upwards of 20-30g of EPA/DHA per day for hard training athletes and folks with autoimmune issues.
Had to go read the Inflammation Nation again. He says in that book that "normal healthy people" need 2.5g, Obesity/heart disease/diabetes need 5g/day, Chronic pain needs 7.5g/day and Neurological conditions need greater than 10g/day.

Of course he promotes his own Dr Sears pharma grade ultra refined fish oil, which is like 7.5g for 1 tablespoon.

Quote:
Too much? One can have excessive bleeding and bruising with too much, not sure how to track that other than some of the flow charts Sears offers regarding eicasanoid status...turds floating or sinking and stuff like that. There is also the EPA/AA blood test...which is quite spendy but Sears highly recomends it.
Yep, Dr Sears likes the EPA/AA ratio, or his SIP profile (Silent INflammation Profile). He says most people are like 20...but ideal health is 1.5. Interestingly he says anything Lower than 1 is not good and should reduce fish oil, and anything below 0.5 highly increases the risk of a hemorrhagic stroke. Ouch. So according to him there is such a thing as too much....but the profile depends on what level of inflammation there is already....so how does one really know without that test? AA levels of course determined by the amount of DGLA (omega 6) that is convereted into AA by the D5D enzyme, or AA directly in the diet. So in addition to fish oil, to improve the ratio of EPA/AA you can increase your D5D enzyme blockers (reduced cortisol, reduced insulin, increased ginger, tumeric, etc...).


Quote:
EPA/DHA-Ideal ratio. Interesting question. I'll run that by Cordain and see what he says. Ultimately most n-3, get converted to DHA...I think. I'm not sure if the EPA is a signaling agent and what roles it plays seperate from DHA...although DHA does appear to be the money shot, where n-3 fatty acids are concerned.
According to Dr Sears he is promoting (in his fish oil too) a 2:1 ratio of EPA/DHA. Now while EPA is the anti-inflammation key, DHA is the key for brain and neurological function (plus lower cholesterol and heart health). So can one with neurodisorders get too much EPA when he really needs DHA?? I know that DHA can be convereted into EPA...but not a clean conversion, although more efficient than ALA into EPA/DHA.

Quote:
CLO-excessive Vit A&D?- Dave Werner and I talked about this a bit...and Art Devany had a bit on this topic. I think the potential for vit A/D toxicity is perhaps over stated unless one is doing very high doses of CLO. I'd just use it for some of the daily n-3's. Also it appears vit A needds are elevated with increased protein intake. Interesting stuff...mor eto investigate!
Dr Sears doesnt touch on that but does say that because of the unstability of fish oil, it has a chance to oxidate and therefore reduce the actual amount of EPA/DHA that is effective. So he recommends more fat soluble antioxidants, Vit E in particular, to increase the stability and effectiveness of the fish oil.


Ok it's late and my brain is tired...but I would love to see Dr Sears and someone else go at it over this. Cordain may say that more Paleo had higher amounts of DHA than EPA in their diet. Sears says you need the other way around but his focus is inflammation.
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:18 AM   #18
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I tried Flameout (one bottle) and was underwhelmed. Biotest advises to give any of their suppliments up to 8 weeks (I'm going from memory here) to achieve the desired effects. It did nothing to relieve the elbow tendonitis I was suffering at the time. The lesson I learned was this, never depend on a suppliment to "cure" what ails you. The tendonitis (more accurately, tendonosis) started to clear up with rest, rehab, and mobility. I started using regular old fish oil (from Target of all places) and CLA from GNC (Flameout has a bunch of CLA).

This was a cheaper approach as I could get 180 CLA caps last almost 3 months, whereas 1 bottle of Flameout (same price as my CLA alone) was gone in less than a month.

I only buy ZMA from Biotest. It's the only supp from them that does what they say it will do. . .that and the Spike shooter. Whoo boy on that stuff.
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Old 12-19-2006, 02:35 PM   #19
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I take 12 Kirkland brand caps a day (from Costco). 850 mg "Concentrated" Fish Oil, 440 mg Omega-3 Fatty acids.

I guess that is only like 5.28 g of Omega-3s. Wow that seems low compared to these other reccomendations.

Time to find some liquid and try another approach.


FWIW, I can tell if I stop taking them. Soreness, not as good sleep, etc.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:07 PM   #20
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OK, I did some research...

One teaspoon of Carlson's has 1600 n-3's. So in order to get 10g of n3 that would mean taking 6.25 tbsp/day. That's like 92 ml of fish oil. The smaller bottle of Carlson's is 200 ml. So, that's like downing a bottle of Carlson's every other day. Each bottle costs $21.99.

Is my math way off, or is that a really expensive fish oil habit?
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