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Old 07-29-2008, 06:49 PM   #21
Steven Low
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Hah, few things I wanna correct with your post Valentin.

400m is "significantly" but not majority aerobic. We have to recall that oxidative is not something that is simply turned on as glycogen reserves burn out; it is on ALL of the time and running at full capacity when you start high intensity workout (you're breathing.. you're using the oxidative pathway, heh, O2/CO2 exchange). It's just that glycolysis turns over more quickly to provide a majority of energy short term more than oxidative pathway until it runs out. Much like creatine phosphate can provide more energy than glycolysis in very, very short periods <5-10s.

Anyway, link for that:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00002/art00010

Lac is not the cause of muscular acidosis. Glycolysis and krebs cycle produce hydrogen ions per turn and hydrolysis of ATP to ADP produces hydrogen ions as well. This are the causes of acidosis. Pyruvate -> Lactate produces no extra ions as both are carboxylic acids and would have already been deprotonated anyway.

Otherwise, great stuff.

I'm still not sure in dismissing all of the lowered response of test/GH to the fact of uptake, lower "relative" stress to make more gains, etc. is indeed true. For example, adrenal fatigue is definitely a condition that can manifest itself much like overtraining/CNS burnout. I am sure the gonads can experience a similar response to overexercising.
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Old 07-29-2008, 10:05 PM   #22
Valentin Uzunov
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Hi

Steven you had me worried haha, when i read your post, i though oh S%#$ what kind of crap have i been writing. However after re-reading it i thinking there miught have been some misunderstanding and given my posts are usually a grammatical, and structured nightmare i accept that there might be some confusion.
In the post i said
Quote:
The 400m is a brutal event, 45sec of sprinting hell (if you are super fast). The event is predominantly an anaerobic event, in 45sec there is simply not enough time for the aerobic system to kick in to provide a great deal of help
The only reference i mention to aerobic training is that it helps with recovery, but it doesn't help with performance (I guess that is not entirely true as it helps with the muscular capability to support performance under elevated muscular acidosis as a result of high intensity intermittent work, and lactic acid turnover (clearing of lactic acid from blood). So in short it helps with training, but not for competitions (unless you have multiple events)

Good point about the lactic acid. You are right, lactic acid in itself is not the cause for muscular acidosis but rather the hydrogen ions pooling. However, even though lactic acid itself is most likely not responsible for negatively impacting performance, the accumulation of lactic acid within muscle tissue is strongly correlated to the build up hydrogen ions, which are the ultimate baddies (as they reduce pH levels and disrupt homeostasis).

The true reason for the build up in H ions is due to the decline ratio of ATP to ADP in cells under anaerobic conditions. Lactate actually takes away H ions by helping to restore NAD (a Proton Donor during the AngG) so that glycolysis can continue, and thus actually takes away H ions.
I recommend everyone to read http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/pdf_extract/105/1/363 for good info on this topic.. It explains better than i would.

I can't really comment on gonads fatigue or adrenal fatigue, however what i would expect is that these conditions don't manifest themselves solely due to training hard. Overtraining is a complex process that is a result of many interplaying systems, and in intself is not very well understood. That being said, overtraining does not seem to a factor in the study, and thus it would be prudent to assume that gonad fatigue could be a reason for the decline in TT and FF for the top athletes in this study.

Thanks for the good discussion..lets keep it going, interesting.


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Old 08-04-2008, 05:26 PM   #23
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Ahh, reminds me of my Matt Furey (I know, I know)/Scrapper days when all I did was body weight calisthenics. No distance running, no heavy weight lifting, and never had any joint pain and felt good at all times.

I think for longevity why not look at what centenarians do in terms of exercise? Lots of low intensity work intersperse with short periods of moderate intensity anaerobic work spread throughout the day (ie gardening, walking, hiking, digging, chopping wood, bike riding).

Since my lifestyle doesn't permit time for this consistency of activity and I have a longevity bias I like to do my own method of Crossfit. I do the WOD but don't worry much about my time. I just do it and make sure I break a sweat and breathe heavily the whole time. I think people (I used to be one) that hit every WOD with maximum-or close to it-intensity are not doing their health or longevity any justice.

Most of those studies deal with athletes or former athletes, and I think that the notion that Crossfitters should be athletes can be misleading depending on one's goals. For military, law-enforcement, and athletes I think an "Elite" level of fitness is absolutely required and desirable, but for those with an emphasis on health and longevity a more moderate approach is better in my opinion.

Anyway, just my two cents. Interesting discussion.
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Old 08-04-2008, 06:20 PM   #24
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I had been thinking about this more lately.

Most folks (myself included at times) tend to only think of overtraining/overreaching as relatively "acute", or short-term, problems. What if there are major "chronic", long-term overtraining repercussions as well? This goes hand-in-hand with the next part...

Being that our physical forms do seem to have limits, there seems to be a finite amount of hormones our bodies will produce in a lifetime, especially with the longer (much past the "fertile" stage that nature/G-d originally wanted us to get to before dying) lifespans we are living. Healthy living, nutrition + exercise + minimizing stress/pollution will maximize this capacity, however, I have not seen anyone get out of the aging process yet. So there seems to be a ceiling on hormone production.

By maximizing neuroendocrine output through hard training at a time in most folks' lives when they can and are willing to undergo the most physical punishment (which coincides with the maximally fertile years typically), are the same people going to pay a heavy price later in lifer for draining their "savings accounts" of hormones? I would guess so.

That being said, it is likely still a good idea to heavily load the bones in the period of life when maximal bone density is established...
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Old 08-04-2008, 07:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Battaglia View Post
I think for longevity why not look at what centenarians do in terms of exercise? Lots of low intensity work intersperse with short periods of moderate intensity anaerobic work spread throughout the day (ie gardening, walking, hiking, digging, chopping wood, bike riding).
Slow and steady wins the lifelong race......fast and quick sells supplements and fitness programs/diet books/magazines. Sadly no money is selling slow and steady.....
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Old 08-04-2008, 08:24 PM   #26
Valentin Uzunov
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Hi

I think that you are right, that for longevity purposes general everyday work/activity is the key. Low intensity stuff. My grandad 80yrs+ is probably in better shape than me, because he lives in a remote village in Bulgaria, and does daily house work all day. Takes the time to enjoy life, and has low low stress levels. He will live forever like this.
However! the biggest factor for longevity is genes. Regardless of training habbits your genetics will account for probably 90% of your longevity. Everything else make up about 10% of what you can influence. You potential athleticly and life span is really encoded in your genes, and there is nothing you can really do about it. Plenty of example of this are present. From the chronic smoker and drinker that lives well into his 80-90s Plenty of people who live horrible lifestyles, and yet! they end up living longer then someone who have tried to live healthy all their life.

Centurions don't get there just because of their daily living, if you actually trace back their ancestors you will find out that virtually all of them come from a long!!! line of centurions (which should be age relevant, as different decades has different life spans). This was also shown through studies on fruit flyies, where over like a period of 2 years they breaded the fruitflies that seemed to have the longest lifespans, and by the end of the study they line of bread fruitflies have like doubles their lifespan, simply by speedup evolutionary process. Many such studies.

So really even though hard exercises like Elite performance training is not actually doing you any favours for longevity, and to improve quality of life in the long long term, its also no where near as damaging. there are many positive benefits to such training that should not be overlooked.

The human body wasn't designed for our current lifestyles, that is really the short and long of it. A plain lifestyle, made up of moderation is really the key to longevity at this stage, with the hope that your ancestors had the same frame of mind (to have promote your good genes). That is until they come up with gene therapy to slow/stop or even reverse the aging process (lets hope that comes up in my lifetime haha..one can only hope)

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Old 08-04-2008, 09:49 PM   #27
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Good post Valentin. I was thinking the same thing. I look at Jack Lalanne, and that old guy that was featured in the Vanity Faire article on the CF Main Page a month or so back... well past the fertile, peak years, and still kicking strong with pretty intense workouts. Lalanne's like 90 or something now and still gets his workout in every morning. the other guy was I think almost 80 and had some crazy workout with thousands of reps and hit it hard on his bike all the time. I think it was the old pro surfer Laird Hamilton who said he couldn't keep up.

I agree that there are certain things we can do to help ensure something won't kill us, i.e, don't smoke, and it's more likely that whatever does kill you won't be emphesema, lung cancer, throat cancer etc. However, when it's your time, it's your time.

Likely a big difference between NFL players getting clobbered by 250 lb. linebackers running 4.5 second 40 yard dashes, and doing a 3:00 minute Fran.

Stay as healthy as you can be now, whatever kills you will do it whenever it wants to.
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Old 08-05-2008, 10:49 AM   #28
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I firmly disagree with the standpoint that longevity is 90% genetic. Studies of isolated populations of centenarians in regions of the world known as "blue zones" show some very striking characteristics among long-lived people, despite being from a completely different gene pool and residing in a different geographical region. Of course the most common rebuttal to this claim will be that the people in blue zones are genetically related and therefore share a common longevity gene. However, this theory is quickly dismantled when you see younger generations (the offspring of these centenarians) developing Syndrome X diseases and dying prematurely after adopting more westernized lifestyle habits (ie the Okinawans are having increasing rates of obesity, diabetes, etc after the introduction of fast-food and a de-emphasis on traditional Okinawan values).

Additionally, look around you. What people do you see living to old ages (most of the time, sure there are exceptions, and in these cases genes probably are the answer) and which do you see getting sick and dying prematurely? The guys who are functional into their old age are almost always more active and eat whole foods as opposed to their heavier, sicker counterparts.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:07 AM   #29
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I think it's 90% mental...the other half is physical.
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Old 08-05-2008, 11:16 AM   #30
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DNA changes within the same lifespan correlated to your entire life choices. What you've decided to do, eat, drink, etc. Simple choice, nothing more. You are the sum total of your present lifespan choices, which is why it is just as good to witness accurate accounts of people using this complex symphonic machine known as a "body" as it is to witness laboratory controlled chemical inter-reactions, so that the rest of us might then make better choices to make the utmost efficient use of ours.

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