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Old 07-29-2008, 06:53 PM   #21
Steven Low
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Dougherty Springer View Post
Thanx MOD this is what I have been thinking/saying for a while and the quote really supports my thought. If insuline keeps us from burning fat, glycogen and even aids in sparing protien from consumtion it alows us only one pathway for energy, digested carbohydrates as blood glucose. This means as soon as you run out of blood sugar which will be either burned or stored a.s.a.p. you will be out of gas and the remaning insuline will make it impossible to tap your natural energy storage. The only way to get more energy at this point would be to down some sugar assuming you can rest long enough for you to absorb it which seems rather unlikely in professional soccer.
This is why it's bad to ingest foods high in sugar PRE workout. Well, besides the fact that blood is diverted to digestive tract instead of muscles... and with high intensity exercise can cause some nice throwing up.

As many of you know, there's a bunch of studies out there on carbs before working leading to decreased performance.

Quote:
So how about a training low carb high fat then two days before a competition have a high rep anabolic workout (full body or concentrating on the primary muscles for your sport) and in the couple hours post have a couple hundred grams of glucose (Yams, carrots, sprouted grains, grapes, berries) . Then have a day of high fat "zone type eating" while you rest for the competition the next day. Have your last meal a few hours before you go to bed and eat light and very low carb leading into the competition. It seems this could very well leave you full of glycogen well rested, recovered and ready for maximum stored energy use.

I don't know it is just something I have played with givin alot of the info I have come across.... any one have an opinion?
Sounds like it could work well. Depends on the person though. If they're not fat adapted (aka have always eaten 70%+ carbs)... gonna be crap regardless.
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Old 07-29-2008, 11:24 PM   #22
Trygve Lunde
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thank you for great replies

i think im starting to get it now. But of course i have to find the % of wich should come from carbs. but from 30 minutes - 2-3 hours after my soccer/weight lifting practice i should then eat the majority of the carbs during that day? and then my second and/if third meal should be protein and fat mainly.

I think then, i can eat around 100-150g carbs in that meal after practice? our lunsj after training sessions is. Bread, pasta, banana, apples, cheese and other things to put on the bread. What of this sources should i choose? and the hard part is that there is not protein to choose from. Sometimes there is some eggs, should i eat only the white then ?


And my second meal should be very much protein and around 70g fat and some veggies. I guess this will make my body still use fat as fuel but have enough glycogen in the muscles to perform well. Ive also seen like you mention mike that people use 2 days of low carb, and 1 day of high? etc etc. this can also be an alternative? but the best is maybe to just eat much carb PWO with protein and no fat. The day before the game i can take a carb load day if i feel the need and contiune low carb during the match day.

What about IF ? i think this is a really nice consept that i should apply in to my regime?
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:46 AM   #23
Liam Dougherty Springer
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Trygve, Some of the best advice I have gotten around here is don't over complicate things. It sounds like you are at a good starting point.

As far as food choices for carbs I go for fruit post workout graes and berries are comparatively high in glucose for muscle glycogen and I also like coconut water O.N.E. is my favorite it is high in electrolites and potasium as well as having some easy access sugars sort of a natural gatorade. I also often here of using yams which are even higher in glucose than any fruit.

Fat for fuel is more about staying away from insulin than anything from what I understand. Eating fat simply makes up for the needed calories to keep from muscle loss in the "proper humen diet". Both choosing somedays to eat less or lower G.I. foods for carbs Post Work Out (PWO) and/or IF would both qualify for significant time with the abscence of high insulin levels. Like Mike says listen to your body, don't get to crazy right off the bat. I mean you are paid to perform so I would be sure that you are definately in good shape for the game, for now that probrably would mean eat some good carbs in your diet the day before.
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Old 07-30-2008, 05:58 AM   #24
Allen Yeh
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Originally Posted by Tom Rawls View Post
Steven,

Do you know of any elite cyclists (e.g. ride in the Tour de France) who restrict carbs?

Is your advice more for receational athletes, who I presume would ride at lower intensity and be less likely to deplete glycogen supplies on long rides?
I don't have a dog in this fight either way and it has been a while since I read the book but I seem to recall that Paleo Diet for Athletes had some elite cyclists cited?
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:01 AM   #25
Darryl Shaw
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Originally Posted by Trygve Lunde View Post
Hehe
i just want to improve all the time, and i think this is a place where there are many smart people.
There might be a lot of smart people here but I'm betting that not many of them have played a full 90 minutes of football in their lives so they have no idea of how physically demanding the game is.

.................................................. ....................


For all those who haven't played football before imagine two back to back 45 minute Tabata workouts and you'll have some idea of how intense can be; if you aren't sprinting flat out you're running to keep up with play. There is no way anyone can keep going at that pace for that length of time without eating a high carb diet. Trygve's training schedule is just as demanding -

Quote:
Sunday: Soccer game at 18:00 90 minutes
Monday: restitution 10:00 in the morning(jogging etc.) and strengt training (45 minutes 3x10 or 5x5 depends) also tell me what you think i should train.

Tuesday: Day off. Here im open for something that will make my body looks better, or performance in soccer increase or fat loss.

Wednestay: Soccer practice 10:00 in the morning. 1-2 hours high intensity. And strengt training after this session, any inputs?

Thursday: practice 10:00 1-2 hour high intensity

Friday: practice 10:00 in the morning, 1-2 hour moderate intensity. Should i do strengt training etc. after?

Saturday: day off, relaxing and preparing for match.
There is no way Trygve could realistically expect to survive a week of high intensity training and play a competitive match at the end of the week unless he's eating a high carb diet.

Also lets not forget that while it's fine to have theoretical debates over the merits of high carb vs low carb diets, fat adaptation, insulin control or whatever this is Trygve's career we're potentially screwing up. At the professional level if a player starts a match with depleted glycogen stores the opposition will be running rings round him before half time and if it happens more than once or twice they'll soon get a reputation for having poor fitness or a general lack of stamina. Managers and fans remember that kind of thing and once a player starts getting a reputation for poor fitness it can follow them for the rest of their career.

.................................................. ........


Trygve, the smartest thing you could do if you want to improve your diet or if you just want lower your bodyfat a little would be read some books on sports nutrition then find a registered sports nutritionist who has experience dealing with professional footballers so they can tailor a diet plan to your specific needs.
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:01 AM   #26
Trygve Lunde
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your on the right track there. thats part of my problem, i really want to find the magic formula and then i have a tendency to complicate things.

I read the http://fitnessblackbook.com/dieting_...-plan-part-ii/

those two parts and i think that is the way i should to it. 2 days of low carb, and 1 day of high carb in the 8 hour eating window. since im doing IF as well. The only thing is that what is low carb on low carb days, around 30 ? or maybe none?

and on high carb days i should aim for like around 300g carbs i think. Protein stays the same at 150g every day.

I think by this i will get the best of both worlds, fat as fuel for my body and enough carb to perform well. And i will also get the leanest possible body that i want.

on this high carb days, can i eat bread or any other kind instead of only fruits and veggies? i know its not optional but can i get away with it ?

Any comments or inputs?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam Dougherty Springer View Post
Trygve, Some of the best advice I have gotten around here is don't over complicate things. It sounds like you are at a good starting point.

As far as food choices for carbs I go for fruit post workout graes and berries are comparatively high in glucose for muscle glycogen and I also like coconut water O.N.E. is my favorite it is high in electrolites and potasium as well as having some easy access sugars sort of a natural gatorade. I also often here of using yams which are even higher in glucose than any fruit.

Fat for fuel is more about staying away from insulin than anything from what I understand. Eating fat simply makes up for the needed calories to keep from muscle loss in the "proper humen diet". Both choosing somedays to eat less or lower G.I. foods for carbs Post Work Out (PWO) and/or IF would both qualify for significant time with the abscence of high insulin levels. Like Mike says listen to your body, don't get to crazy right off the bat. I mean you are paid to perform so I would be sure that you are definately in good shape for the game, for now that probrably would mean eat some good carbs in your diet the day before.
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Old 07-30-2008, 07:13 AM   #27
Trygve Lunde
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Thank you for great respons.
I have experienced many times during soccer practice that my energi wasnt there due to glycogen depleting muscles and when that happend i was smoked. So i want let that happend again. I know that many people in the soccer industry is all about CARB CARB CARB and low fat. But i think many researches have proved that there is something about fat as well.

So my goal for this post was to get the best of both worlds as i mentioned. fat as fuel for everything exept when i have high intensity etc etc like soccer when glycogen is the only fuel possible, and the best. And as i said in the post before this one, how about the approach of 1 high carb day and two low carb days with high fat ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
There might be a lot of smart people here but I'm betting that not many of them have played a full 90 minutes of football in their lives so they have no idea of how physically demanding the game is.

.................................................. ....................


For all those who haven't played football before imagine two back to back 45 minute Tabata workouts and you'll have some idea of how intense can be; if you aren't sprinting flat out you're running to keep up with play. There is no way anyone can keep going at that pace for that length of time without eating a high carb diet. Trygve's training schedule is just as demanding -



There is no way Trygve could realistically expect to survive a week of high intensity training and play a competitive match at the end of the week unless he's eating a high carb diet.

Also lets not forget that while it's fine to have theoretical debates over the merits of high carb vs low carb diets, fat adaptation, insulin control or whatever this is Trygve's career we're potentially screwing up. At the professional level if a player starts a match with depleted glycogen stores the opposition will be running rings round him before half time and if it happens more than once or twice they'll soon get a reputation for having poor fitness or a general lack of stamina. Managers and fans remember that kind of thing and once a player starts getting a reputation for poor fitness it can follow them for the rest of their career.

.................................................. ........


Trygve, the smartest thing you could do if you want to improve your diet or if you just want lower your bodyfat a little would be read some books on sports nutrition then find a registered sports nutritionist who has experience dealing with professional footballers so they can tailor a diet plan to your specific needs.
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Old 07-30-2008, 01:30 PM   #28
Liam Dougherty Springer
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The Performance Menu issue which is availiable for free at the store has an article on glycogen replenishment and it has some relevant links to clinical study research.

It might help you decide on your recovery meal carbohydrate portions.
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Old 07-30-2008, 02:44 PM   #29
Craig Loizides
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You might want to take a look at The Paleo Diet For Athletes. It's pretty much what others have recommended which is low carb paleo plus extra carbs before, during, and after workouts. I think you end up somewhere around 40-50% carbs but since it is low carb most of the day you still get the benefits of improved insulin sensitivity and ability to use fat as fuel. It takes most people 2-4 weeks to become adapted to a diet like this if you're used to a high carb all the time diet. After a month or so you might want to experiment with occasionally skipping the extra carbs after a practice or doing some IF.

I don't think anyone would recommend going into a match with low levels of glycogen but there are different methods of refueling. There's high carb all the time which is what most people do. Or carbs only around workouts (paleo for athletes). Or low carb during the week with carbloads on weekends and maybe once midweek (metabolic diet). Or some combination of them. You need to find what works best for you, but I think most people can do better than high carb all the time as long as they're willing to go through the month long adaptation phase.
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Old 07-30-2008, 03:27 PM   #30
Craig Loizides
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Other thoughts/questions on this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
For example, you will ALWAYS run out of glycogen reserves ~250-300m into a 400m sprint whether you're a novice or an elite athlete.

The liver has approximately 2000-2500 calories worth of glycogen stored it in to release during exercise. This is enough to take you 22-24 miles into a marathon without depletion; it's a whole hell of a lot of glycogen.
Steven, I've been wondering about this. I thought the liver had about 100g stored glycogen and the body had a total of 2000-2500 calories stored. Am I wrong here? Either way why does a 400m sprinter run out at 250m and a marathoner at 20 miles?

Quote:
This is why it's bad to ingest foods high in sugar PRE workout. Well, besides the fact that blood is diverted to digestive tract instead of muscles... and with high intensity exercise can cause some nice throwing up.
If it's immediately before a workout and easily digestible it can usually be helpful (for endurance activities anyway). You can try experimenting with 8-16 ounces of gatorade 5-10 minutes before a workout. A glucose based drink might be even better than gatorade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam
graes and berries are comparatively high in glucose
nutritiondata.com has grapes and berries at roughly 50% glucose/50% fructose along with most fruits and vegetables (apples and pears are only bout 35%). It seems that only starchy fruits and vegetables have more glucose : carrots 60%, bananas 65%, sweet potato 100%. I'd be curious to see other numbers if you have them.
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Old 07-30-2008, 04:24 PM
Liam Dougherty Springer
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