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Old 09-17-2008, 10:31 AM   #11
Gant Grimes
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Grissim, break each round/component into 3 sets. When you improve, break them into two sets. Then try it straight through. Just try not to rack the bar; that will cost you the most time.

I try to manage everything, which is why I do heavier metcons. I program them so I reach exhaustion at (n-1) before switching to the other exercise in the couplet. Ideally, I don't have to rest.

There are several hundred wonderful discussions on this on the CF boards. Fran is a vital concern to many CFers. Placed in proper perspective, it's a hellish workout that comes up about 5 times a year. You needn't concern yourself beyond that.

PS I'm amazed at how many people brag about unbroken sets but post crappy times. If you can shave 1-2 minutes off your time by resting, then do it.

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
Great article about the potential long term effects of managing workouts by Jon Gilson of AgainFaster (W/F/S)
Gilson has good stuff, but I disagree with that article, and any athlete training for a sport will, too. Managing workload, nutrition, intensity, and recovery is vital towards peaking for events and achieving athletic success. If you're into "competitive fitness" rather than sport, then I suppose it's ok to go at an 11 every day, though I suspect you'll burn out much sooner than Gilson did. BTW, John has had years of positive progress by managing his workouts. His numbers are top notch. I suspect his recent regression is caused by something else.
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Last edited by Gant Grimes; 09-17-2008 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:39 AM   #12
Grissim Connery
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i guess i should give some numbers too:
5'9"
165 lbs
31" waiste
dunno BF%, but can see abs

Snatch: 135lb
C&J: 185lb
DL: 365 or 385lb (don't remember which one it was)
OHS: 135lb
BS: 245lb
Shoulder Press: 165
5k run: 21-22min
Fran (stated above): 7:45

as i'm typing this, i realize that i've never maxed on FS
back when i weight 244lb, BS was above 400lb. that weight frightens me now
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:31 PM   #13
Jacob Rowell
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There's a time and place for managing workouts. Most people I see at the gym who manage make progress slower, but in a more linear fashion. As said before, going balls-out every time can lead to a quick burnout, but we tend to program in some "rest" weeks, 5x5 type lifting, skill practice, whatever, to stave that off.

That being said, Fran is short, and I've gotten to a sub-4:00 time without being a particularly gifted CrossFitter or very strong either. I never planned much, but rather my body planned for me, when i couldn't deal with the fatigue, down the bar went. The goal was however, to not put it down. If I had to put the bar down every 7 reps. it would have been a very different workout.

As I got stronger, and my times dropped from 7:00-something to 3:49 (I'm not claiming it's an impressive time btw), it never got easier or more comfortable. I think my mental capacity to deal with the "suck" improved as much as my conditioning and work capacity.
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:11 PM   #14
Grissim Connery
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that's a pretty interesting take as well. i did rack the weights between each set, and it seems so easy to lose focus during those times. at times i would find myself sucking wind as opposed to controlling my breathing. it seems like if you don't rack the weight and stay under it, you really have no choice but to breath properly.

today during the strength portion of my workout, i worked on both FS and BS (3x3 for both) and spent about 3 seconds on each rep in the third world stance. these weren't really negatives, but just a rep with some chill time on the bottom. i feel like the more time my body hangs out down there, the more it likes to be down there
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:08 PM   #15
Steve Liberati
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Stop trying to figure out the best strategy and just attack the workout like a raging animal with enough fire power to knock down an army. There are a million and one ways to approach Fran.

The most effective one is to just DO IT.

This is not Chinese arithmetic. We are simply lifting a load....a heavy one at that....over a long distance...in a short time.

Get stronger (via Fran, back squats, CrossFit, Oly Lifting, etc) and you'll miraculously get better at Fran.

Simply as that. Try not to over think this stuff. Really. Or you'll start OUT psyching yourself. When you constantly strive to improve, it is too easy too try to hard.

The counter strategy is to stop trying and just do it.

Happens all the time to professional athletes and partially explains the reason why streaks are so prevalent in sports.
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:37 AM   #16
Alex Europa
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Gant, I know where you're coming from, but I have to disagree with you in some regards. There are some workouts that neccessitate managing, "Murph" comes to mind, or a "true" intervals workout with specific time goals per 400, 800, whatever. But something like "Fran," in my eyes is nothing but a balls to the wall effort. However, that DOES NOT mean that he shouldn't break up the sets. Like I said in my previous post, it's my opinion that he has to manage his workout DURING the workout, not before. Yes, people develop and make great gains by going with 3 subsets, then 2, then straight through, but I know it works better for me to not set specific goals per set. If I NEEDED to rest at 17 (or 12, 14, whatever) reps, then I would. I also try to remember that whenever I feel like I need to rest, I've still got a solid 2 or 3 reps left in me. Additionally, it is possible to go all out consistantly and not get burnt out. Everyone is different; if I'm not mistaken, this is one of the reasons that you came up with your Hybrid program. As for training for sport, fighters (like Grissim and yourself) don't have the luxury to manage their intensity in a match. The intensity is based off the pace of the fight which is in no small part predicated by their opponent. In my eyes, fighters that don't go 100% into any workout that has similar time demands as their rounds/fights, are setting themselves up for failure when they face an opponent that HAS trained like that. Again, going 100% doesn't mean refusing to break up the sets. It means going to that individual's limit on that day - which can be different from one workout to the next based off any number of factors. I realize that nothing that I'm saying is earth shattering or stuff that you don't know, Gant. I'm merely pointing it out so that you understand my thought process, in order to keep the conversation flowing, not because I feel the need to enlighten you in any way.

Grissim, the third world squat is great, but the downside to just doing the third world squat is that it doesn't force you (or help you) to keep your chest up and your torso perfectly vertical. Definitely work in some weighted upright squats and pole squats. They've helped out my snatching and OHS ability immensely.

Steve, how's everything going with your gym? Can we expect to see an updated Journal article in the future?

- Alex
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:28 PM   #17
Ben Moskowitz
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I wrote the author of the 3rd world squat, and apparently you are supposed to keep your chest up and back neutral all the time at whatever depth you can achieve. It's more like an isometric air squat for time, and it's just not fun.
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Old 09-18-2008, 07:35 PM   #18
Garrett Smith
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A full-depth unweighted squat, due to the anterior/posterior weight distribution, is something I don't know I've ever seen performed with a neutral spine and chest up in the rock-bottom position. Add a weighted bar to the equation, the weight distribution is completely different, allowing A2G position without losing the neutral spine. Add OL shoes, it's a different universe.

I'd love to see the person who can do an A2G unweighted squat barefoot and not lose their lumbar lordosis. Trying to do it while maintaining a lordosis is a good "rehab" exercise to regain that ROM that we all had as children.

Sitting in a full squat, relaxing my back, feels great and decompressing. It's just not a position to load the spine in or go ballistically up and down from.

Even untainted youngsters can't maintain lordosis in an A2G squat barefoot:
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Old 09-18-2008, 08:35 PM   #19
sarena kopciel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
A full-depth unweighted squat, due to the anterior/posterior weight distribution, is something I don't know I've ever seen performed with a neutral spine and chest up in the rock-bottom position. Add a weighted bar to the equation, the weight distribution is completely different, allowing A2G position without losing the neutral spine. Add OL shoes, it's a different universe.

I'd love to see the person who can do an A2G unweighted squat barefoot and not lose their lumbar lordosis. Trying to do it while maintaining a lordosis is a good "rehab" exercise to regain that ROM that we all had as children.

Sitting in a full squat, relaxing my back, feels great and decompressing. It's just not a position to load the spine in or go ballistically up and down from.

Even untainted youngsters can't maintain lordosis in an A2G squat barefoot:
Are you gonna be posting pics of ur daughter soon in a A2G sq??
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Old 09-19-2008, 04:33 AM   #20
Pat McElhone
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I have been to the "third world" and have seen real "third worlders" perform real third world squats, lumbar extension was lost everytime. It was usually performed barefoot or with thin sandals. No one wore weightlifting shoes, also the arms were not used for counterbalance to drop into the "third world squat".
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