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Old 09-24-2008, 08:40 AM   #11
George Mounce
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Originally Posted by Steve Forman View Post
Does anyone have a reference or article that argues or shows why proper form is better than intensity? Or better worded, just what are the physical benefits to proper form other than prevention of injury?

thanks

Steve
My question would be why can't you be intense with proper form? When form breaks down are you really being more intense? Intensity is really subjective to the individual, for some (myself included) a 1 RM max deadlift with perfect form is so intense I can only do it once and my CNS is literally fried for the whole day.

I would have to say prevention of injury is enough of a case for me to ensure form is correct at all times.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:11 PM   #12
Steve Forman
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Dig deep here, How does poor form affect, flexibility and strength? I know it has a negative affect on it. I know poor form can cause injuries and lack of ROM doesn't give you the desired results, BUT HOW?

Steve

George, I agree with you.

As stated above, and probably a better question, I am not the one that needs to be convinced. Others though need more information. I need literature that shows these effects or lack there of. In my case I have one specific client that has continued to use improper form for years. He refuses to change with the argument that he has never been hurt before. He also states that he doesnt believe that his performance is suffering.

Now Steven Low pointed to an article on Again Faster that talked about the difference of proper and improper form and the use of small and large muscles in those exercises. Great article. However I need more!

Its Okay, Steven Low might be right, there is really no good answer here, WHAT............ I know people will have a difference of opinion here but there's got to be some literature on the effects of poor and improper form. Maybe the title of the thread was a bad choice by me.

bottom line I know bad form has negative effects. It can effect, flexibility and strength. Maybe even coordination. It can cause injury, I get that.

I just need some literature.

Okay Rant over, thanks for letting me blow steam.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:30 PM   #13
Craig Brown
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Steve, I don't think you'll find what you are looking for. Because either poor form causes an acute injury, which is not a valid point to your guy (as he's never been hurt), causes chronic injuries (which aren't actually provable to have come from poor form as they develop over the long term), or your client is a guy with bomber joints and connective tissues, and is correct- it doesn't matter in his case. You can look at the biomechanics of a movement and see why one way is more physically advantageous than another, but as far as an intrinsic, concrete reason why perfect form is better than imperfect form- when you have removed injury and efficiency from the model, it doesn't actually matter. The obvious issues are lever arms and shear, but these don't matter if you are strong as an ox and bulletproof.

Of course, most of us here are concerned with efficiency and injury prevention, but not everyone is.

Craig
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:50 PM   #14
Steve Forman
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Steve, I don't think you'll find what you are looking for. Because either poor form causes an acute injury, which is not a valid point to your guy (as he's never been hurt), causes chronic injuries (which aren't actually provable to have come from poor form as they develop over the long term), or your client is a guy with bomber joints and connective tissues, and is correct- it doesn't matter in his case. You can look at the biomechanics of a movement and see why one way is more physically advantageous than another, but as far as an intrinsic, concrete reason why perfect form is better than imperfect form- when you have removed injury and efficiency from the model, it doesn't actually matter. The obvious issues are lever arms and shear, but these don't matter if you are strong as an ox and bulletproof.

Of course, most of us here are concerned with efficiency and injury prevention, but not everyone is.

Craig
thank you
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Old 09-24-2008, 06:18 PM   #15
Pat McElhone
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Proper form is that form that allows for the most production of force. If you look at weightlifting in the olympics, those fly weight women all had a better snatch then me, but I am sure I am much stronger in the slow lifts....why their form is better in the snatch then mine. They can produce more force then I can because their technique is rock solid.

Also, practice makes permanate. The more someone does crappy snatch form on the WOD "Isabelle", the harder it will be to later relearn the correct pathways. So, as it always seems to come down to with Crossfit, what are the guy's goals?
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:58 AM   #16
Gant Grimes
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Originally Posted by Steve Forman View Post
Come on laddies and Gents! I know this site is one of the most technical sites there is. Dig deep here, How does poor form affect, flexibility and strength? I know it has a negative affect on it. I know poor form can cause injuries and lack of ROM doesn't give you the desired results, BUT HOW?

Steve Low has turned me to some awesome articles about squat form and form vs intensity (Again Faster has some great stuff), but I have not found the technical answer that I think some look for. If anything this could be good discussion for us, as apposed to answering the long waited question: How many blocks is this meal?

thanks

Steve
For me, training with perfect form is paramount because it prepares your body for the times it won't be able to use perfect form, i.e. competitive athletics (or moving telephone poles during the Apocalypse, etc.). That's why programming should be different for those doing CF for conditioning vs. those doing CF for, um, "sport."

Rather than program conditioning that encourages form breakdown, I plan** sessions that emphasize form but still take a significant metabolic toll (recognizing there is some tradeoff in the extreme ranges).

I can't offer you any literature and don't feel the need to look for it. Some things you know to be true. Or true for you, anyway.


**Back when I was in shape.

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Proper form is that form that allows for the most production of force.
For the most part. In most cases--in competitive athletics--you can generate 99% of the force with slightly inefficient technique than you can with perfect technique. Form comes into play when you're repeating these movements.

Consider grapplers. An inefficient grappler will exhaust himself in the first 30 seconds of a match. This isn't because of conditioning, but because his movements, which are applied with excellent force, are inefficient (which taxes his conditioning even more). I recently lost a match this way.

Like you said, it depends on the guy's goals. If you want a better Isabel, grip it and rip it. If you use the snatch to improve at sport, scale appropriately and manage intensity as necessary (or just cut the reps to say...2). If you just want to get better at snatch, then I wouldn't do Isabel at all.
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Last edited by Gant Grimes : 09-25-2008 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 09-25-2008, 10:58 AM   #17
Garrett Smith
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Proper form, or attempting to maintain proper form, will both improve flexibility necessary to the exercise being undertaken and in some cases, allow for a lighter weight to be used while still maintaining subjective levels of "high intensity".

Proper form loads the joints and muscles in the most efficient manner, preventing unnecessary wear & tear.

As for your clients who say that their "form" hasn't caused them acute OR chronic injury yet, you may want to have them think of it this way...

"My car was working just fine, I didn't bother with scheduled maintenance, until XXXX broke...now it doesn't run the same (or at all). Mechanic (ie. healthcare practitioners of any/all sorts) says that it will cost a fortune to fix it and it may never be the same again due to permanent damage that was done..."

Everything "works" until it "breaks", then it doesn't work right anymore.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Everything has a cost--one can either pay now, or pay a lot more later.

If people don't get that, then they will simply have to learn the hard way.
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Old 09-25-2008, 12:00 PM   #18
Anthony Bainbridge
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its for the stubborn clients who insist on doing things without proper form
Drop them as a client. Problem solved.
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Old 09-25-2008, 12:07 PM   #19
Steve Forman
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Drop them as a client. Problem solved.
thought about that.

In my search, Steve Low has turned me to Again Faster .com. There are some great articles on that website and its has great search function as well. I am linking one that I found I thought was really good. kind of what I was looking for when he begins the explain what happens to certain muscle groups in a thruster, in good and bad form. Anyways I hope you enjoy!


http://www.againfaster.com/articles/...erfection.html
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Old 09-25-2008, 12:10 PM   #20
Steve Forman
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Originally Posted by Garrett Smith View Post
Proper form, or attempting to maintain proper form, will both improve flexibility necessary to the exercise being undertaken and in some cases, allow for a lighter weight to be used while still maintaining subjective levels of "high intensity".

Proper form loads the joints and muscles in the most efficient manner, preventing unnecessary wear & tear.

As for your clients who say that their "form" hasn't caused them acute OR chronic injury yet, you may want to have them think of it this way...

"My car was working just fine, I didn't bother with scheduled maintenance, until XXXX broke...now it doesn't run the same (or at all). Mechanic (ie. healthcare practitioners of any/all sorts) says that it will cost a fortune to fix it and it may never be the same again due to permanent damage that was done..."

Everything "works" until it "breaks", then it doesn't work right anymore.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Everything has a cost--one can either pay now, or pay a lot more later.

If people don't get that, then they will simply have to learn the hard way.
Great analogy, thanks. I guess if that doesn't work with this guy, then Ill beat him with 2x4, then drop him like Anthony says.
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