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Old 01-04-2007, 08:53 PM   #11
Neal Winkler
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I don't understand, Steve.
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Old 01-04-2007, 08:59 PM   #12
Mike ODonnell
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You want me to prove that I can cure any disease with good health? Well that is irrational, no way I can do that. How about if I live to 100 and never have cancer, did I now prove that probiotics saved me...or was the lack of distance running....or maybe those flintstone vitamins from when I was a kid.

If you do not want to believe in something that can not be physically proved in a court of law, then that is your opinion. I would rather believe that I will not get sick if I lead a healthy lifestyle. That alone may let my body become healthier because I don't think every germ makes me sick. The body is smarter than I can ever be. If germs make people sick, then if you add one sick person in the room with 10 others, the other 10 must be sick. If one is not, then that ruins the whole theory on germs have to make you sick. A lowered immune system will make you sick because it allows a germ to take control.

Taking the reverse, how does one get well once one is sick? The body fights it off. So the body is capable of healing properties. Now what is the extent on that....if someone claims from some clinic in Denmark that they have cured a cancer patient with 3 weeks of fresh organic juice fasting only and rest....is that possible? I would like to think anything is possible...other what is the use of living if you think everyone is destined to get sick and never have a chance at health. Everyone has an individual immune system...everyone has a different lifestyle...everyone has different genes....so hence everyone's health is individualistic. But one fact remains true, you have control....may be a little...may be alot.....but you have control in what you do, what you eat, how you handle stress,etc. Health is just the sum of all parts. Disease is the rate of cellular destruction is greater than the rate of cellular repair. To that point, aging in itself is a disease.

Other proofs, I have never had a flu shot, I didn't get the flu in the last 3 years, I've been exposed to many people who have, consensus, the flu germs dont make you sick (only a person with a lowered immune system gets sick). I've broken bones and never had a doctor open me up and surgically put them back together, so they must of been repaired by the body. So the body can heal itself. Simple but life observing ideas now proven.

Either way, it's a choice of perception. I don't have to wait for hard proof to have my belief and carry on my life. In the end I'll prove it when I am 99, or I may not do enough and end up in an early grave. But I do have control on what I can do to prevent disease and how I want to live my days out now. The rest I will take as it comes.
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:07 PM   #13
Billy_Brummel
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Life would be pretty bleak if we all abstained from irrationally believing once in a while me thinks.
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:52 AM   #14
Pierre Auge
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If a tree falls in the forest does anybody hear?

Oh the ever so wise Bruce Cockburn.

I think I'm going to start a commune up here in Northern Ontario and just live off the wild, like a hunter gatherer. See how long I can make it!
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Old 01-05-2007, 06:25 AM   #15
Steve Shafley
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Never mind. For some reason I read you saying you were a nihilist and doubted the existence of anything outside of your own consciousness.

Skimming vs. reading in depth in action.
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:01 PM   #16
Neal Winkler
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You want me to prove that I can cure any disease with good health? Well that is irrational, no way I can do that.
Ok, so you admit that you are irrational. Admitting that you have a problem is the first step in recovery.

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If you do not want to believe in something that can not be physically proved in a court of law, then that is your opinion.
Well, not literally in a court of law as I could have a biased (or stupid) judge or jury, but certainly I do believe that one should have some decent reasons for believing something, the more decent they are the stronger they should hold belief in that proposition. Now, why do I believe THAT? Hmm, because doing otherwise just seems irrational, and that just seems wrong. But how decent of a reason is appealing to my intuition? Of course, if I need to have a reason for every belief that doesn't stop with my intution at some point then I will have an infinite chain leading back and ultimately nothing will be justified. Perhaps there are just some propositions like that, where intuition is enough to justify it. Are the things you have mentioned (like curing every disease through diet) in that same category? My intuition thinks not.

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If germs make people sick, then if you add one sick person in the room with 10 others, the other 10 must be sick. If one is not, then that ruins the whole theory on germs have to make you sick. A lowered immune system will make you sick because it allows a germ to take control.
Are you intentionally trying to be irrational here? Perhaps you are being facetious and I just missed it. If not, how do I even begin to answer this? Germs don't make you sick because someone can be infected with germs but not have an illness? I suppose your going to tell me next that gravity doesn't exist because ballons float up in the air.

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I would like to think anything is possible...other what is the use of living if you think everyone is destined to get sick and never have a chance at health.
Huh???

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Other proofs, I have never had a flu shot, I didn't get the flu in the last 3 years, I've been exposed to many people who have, consensus, the flu germs dont make you sick (only a person with a lowered immune system gets sick).
Mike, you need to draw some distinctions between necessary and sufficient conditions. Being exposed to flu germs is necessary but not sufficient condition to getting the flu. Furthermore, having an immune system to weak to fight off the flu germs (which CAUSE the flu) is a necessary but not sufficient conditon to getting the flu. The conjunction of these two conditions is sufficient for becoming ill. In some cases, even the healthiest immune system may be too weak to fight off germs, because GERMS CAUSE DISEASES. What if I had a weakened immune system but was exposed to no influenza viruses? Would I get sick with the flu? Obviously not, because GERMS CAUSE DISEASES.
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:44 PM   #17
Steve Liberati
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Valid counter arguments but just a bit condescending wouldn't you say?
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:55 PM   #18
Mike ODonnell
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Originally Posted by Neal Winkler View Post
GERMS CAUSE DISEASES.
I'll just answer this as it pretty much is the heart of your belief.

I'll take it one step further to have some fun. Your body's health is based on a simple balance of 2 things, cellular repair and cellular destruction. That is the foundation. Find me something lower than that and I will then be in agreement with whatever you say. Until that time, I will take that as my final answer.

Cellular repair is a complex system that the body regulates everyday. Cellular destruction is also complex and happens every day. Any disease will pretty much have at the root of all evil destruction of cells important to health (whatever those cells may be). So disease can be summed up as the rate of destruction is greater than the rate of cellular repair. Do germs cause cellular destruction, sure. But if your rate of repair (or immune system as we will call it) is high, then your body never really sees a negative balance on the cell level of breakdown/repair. Now take into account everything in your life....stress, exercise, bad foods, air, polution, toxins, etc....how do those add to the overall equation, is it more cell destruction or does it promote more cell repair? Now your overall state of health is defined as the sum of all parts...not one in particular.

So germs DO have a hand and influence in our health, BUT they are NOT the only determining factor. (The big point in my ramblings) If you believe otherwise, then technically unless you live in a bubble you should be sick all the time (since germs are everywhere), and I am assuming that you are not. Disease and illness is a terrible thing in life, and if that has been your past experience than I am sorry that it happened. I will not however take a pessimistic view of we are all doomed, nor am I taking a naive approach to say that sunshine and giggles cures all ailments.

Plus your assumption that I say "10 people get exposed to a germ, 7 get sick and therefore the statement all germs make you sick is false" and "a balloon floats and therefore gravity doesn't exist" isn't even on the same level of thought. It should say "A balloon floats and therefore the statement of gravity makes all thing fall to the ground is false". But that would only strengthen my argument.

So are we in agreement that the statement "Germs Cause Disease" is not 100% true because germs are not the only part of the sum of what is called "health"? Or do we all need to live in Bubbles and hope my irrational tonic of sunshine and giggles keeps us alive?
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Old 01-05-2007, 04:01 PM   #19
Neal Winkler
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So germs DO have a hand and influence in our health, BUT they are NOT the only determining factor. (The big point in my ramblings)
Ok, that's what I said too. I didn't see that point in your ramblings, I misunderstood you. I thought you were making crazy leaps in logic by saying that if germs cause disease then everyone exposed to germs should be sick, but because everyone exposed to germs is not sick germs therefore do not cause diseases.

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I will not however take a pessimistic view of we are all doomed
If you're trying to say that because I don't agree that the body can heal all illnesses then we are all doomed, you have misunderstood me. I think the body can heal and prevent a great many illnesses, but to say ALL is bit much, and you admit that your belief that it can is irrational. The rationality of your belief is what I originally set out to argue about, not whether or not germs causes disease. If a belief is irrational, then you shouldn't hold the belief. I'm not saying that your are dumb Mike, but to admit that you hold an irrational belief and not change it is basically admitting that your dumb. I've held all kinds of irrational beliefs, and I no doubt hold irrational beliefs right now, but once I find out about it I won't keep holding on to them. I change them to make myself more rational, because rationality is something we should all strive for.
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Old 01-05-2007, 04:10 PM   #20
Greg Everett
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Neal, is you're girlfriend not putting out anymore? Enhance your calm...
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