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Old 12-10-2008, 04:49 PM   #21
Brian Lawyer
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I sent my O'Lift coach an email about my hip flexor soreness to see what he thought. Like I said he's never said anything to me about my squat form. On the other hand, my snatch form is a whole other story. Again, he's never said anything about my OH squat position when recieving the snatch.

He responded to my email with a one liner about making sure my knees track my toes but then went on with a whole paragraph on stretching my squat position on a daily basis. So I am going to assume from that respone that he thinks this is a flexibility issue with me.
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:59 PM   #22
Steven Low
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As I said... it's probably fine. If you don't want them sore back off some and let them recover. That should take care of it.

If they're getting tight, stretch/massage/ART them more.
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:04 PM   #23
Donald Lee
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Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
The reason people typically get lower (though not always) in a high bar back squat is not because they have more flexible hamstrings, but rather because as I said above the hamstring is shortened by the anatomy of the movement. By shortening the hamstring you remove some of the tension and make it easier to get low without losing your pelvic tilt. This shortening also means that the hamstrings can no longer contribute as strong of a contraction though. So in order to get enough force production to get out of the whole the quads and hip flexors must work much harder.

If anything low bar back squats take much more hamstring flexibility to preform because of the extra tension put on the hamstrings when at full depth.
I'm not an expert on hamstring anatomy, but when you're at the bottom of the full squat, something's pulling on your lower back. It's either the glutes or the hamstrings, or both.

And you said:

"So in order to get enough force production to get out of the whole the quads and hip flexors must work much harder. "

I believe the glutes are what really help you out of the bottom of the squat because the hamstrings are shortened. I don't think anything you said contradicts what I said about the hip flexors though.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:07 AM   #24
Steven Low
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Okay, here's everything summed up into one picture.



So basically, hip flexor work = normal. If they're sore then they're getting a lot of work and might not be adjusted to the volume. Consider some more REST or stretching if they're tight.
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:26 PM   #25
Brian Lawyer
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Did we ever draw a conclusion on whether there is a difference with P'Lifting Squat vs. O'Lifting squat regarding how much our hip flexors have to work?

I'm wondering if it is beneficial, to give my hip flexors a break, to switch over to a P'lifting style squat on my workout days when I am just doing 3 x 5 of Back squat.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:14 PM   #26
Kris Reeves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
Did we ever draw a conclusion on whether there is a difference with P'Lifting Squat vs. O'Lifting squat regarding how much our hip flexors have to work?

I'm wondering if it is beneficial, to give my hip flexors a break, to switch over to a P'lifting style squat on my workout days when I am just doing 3 x 5 of Back squat.

Or maybe it's time to just cycle the weight back some...not switch squat styles but knock 15% or so off your working weight??? I don't know for sure...I'm just throwin' that out there...
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Old 12-11-2008, 02:21 PM   #27
Brian Lau
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
Did we ever draw a conclusion on whether there is a difference with P'Lifting Squat vs. O'Lifting squat regarding how much our hip flexors have to work?

I'm wondering if it is beneficial, to give my hip flexors a break, to switch over to a P'lifting style squat on my workout days when I am just doing 3 x 5 of Back squat.
I find that whenever my hip flexors get too sore from squatting, it's because I've increased the volume of low-bar squats. Switching to high-bar squats for awhile provides relief for me. This seems consistent with the observation that low-bar squats generate relatively more moment of force about the hip than the knee compared to high-bar squats (Wretenberg et al., 1996). For people who low-bar squat more than they high-bar squat, this translates into greater hip torques, and I'm guessing that the hip flexors have to work that much harder to keep the pelvis positioned optimally (thanks for the drawing Steven!).
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:59 PM   #28
Robert Callahan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
Did we ever draw a conclusion on whether there is a difference with P'Lifting Squat vs. O'Lifting squat regarding how much our hip flexors have to work?

I'm wondering if it is beneficial, to give my hip flexors a break, to switch over to a P'lifting style squat on my workout days when I am just doing 3 x 5 of Back squat.

Yeah I don't know. I still think it makes sense that an Oly/high bar squat is going to have more stress on the hip flexors since the hamstrings are doing less of the work. Not that this is bad or anything, just the nature of the beast. If anyone has a good argument for why this may not be the case I would love to hear it

If it is the case maybe switching to a style of squat outlined in SS would be a nice lay off for your hip flexors? The only way to know really is to try it out though...

-Robert
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:26 AM   #29
Jamie Crichton
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The hip flexors and the hamstrings do not perform comparable actions. For our purposes you can think of them as antagonistic. The hamstrings EXTEND the hip, for example standing up straight, deadlifting etc. The hip flexors FLEX the hip, for example bring the knees to the chest, situps etc.

When you squat, the action of the hip flexors will be to counteract the increasing tension of the hamstrings and glutes, to maintain spinal extension. Remember they are not directly assisting you to stand up with the weight. Contraction of the hamstrings and glutes will extend the hip, which along with extension of the knee, will return you to an upright position. The only contribution of the hip flexors in this case is maintaining a straight back. Indeed, the extent of this contribution is debatable; the lumbar extensors are more likely to be doing the bulk of the work in maintaining spinal extension.

If this isn't clear please refer to a textbook of anatomy for the functions and positions of the various muscles. Also remember that soreness in the anterior hip could be caused by other structures besides the hip flexors.
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Old 12-20-2008, 02:22 PM   #30
Brian Lawyer
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You all have great textbook, kinesiological arguments above. I appreciate the feedback. Here's an update on experiences in the gym over the past couple weeks.

I have the book Starting Strength which I refer to quite a bit regarding squat technique. The problem is, I was using a lot of coach Rips cues such has "hips back" and "limiting forward knee travel"while still using a high bar position. As a result, and my coach observed this today, I have not been letting my knees travel far enough forward during OH squats and high bar back squats. This may or may not be why the increased hip flexor soreness.

Any how, I concluded when doing high bar back squats, OH squats, or Front Squats, I need to sit my butt straight down and let knees travel further forward.

On the other hand I have also played around with the low bar back squat position in recently. the lower bar position does significantly change the dynamic of the lift and Rip's coaching cue such as "hips back" and "limit forward knee travel", and "hip drive" do work well with the low bar position.

My conclusion is I can't mix up the coaching cues on the two lifts or I am going to stress my hip flexors.
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