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Old 12-12-2008, 01:55 PM   #1
Anton Emery
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Hey All,

Recently while surfing sherdog.com i came across the website of Joel Jaimeson, who runs www.8weeksout.com He is a trainer up in Seattle and has worked with a ton of high level MMA fighters.

His articles made me really think about my approach to conditioning, and i wanted to run it by you all. I may be way off base.

As far as conditioning in the past i have just cherry picked from a pool met con workouts i have, stuff from Ross Enamait and Crossfit and inserted them into my conditioning days during the week. I tried to retain a mixture of weighted conditioning and BW stuff, as well as keep in mind muscular endurance and explosive strength. For grappling i need to cover all the bases.

In his article Metabolic Conditioning: One size does not fit all, Joel talks about the equation cardiac supply + muscular metabolism (demand) = energy production. So if i understand that equation correctly you need both a strong heart to supply oxygen to the muscles, and well conditioned muscles to utilize the oxygen. If the cardiac output of the heart is not up to par, the muscles turn to the anaerobic systems, which fatigue quickly. Conversely, you can have a good cardiac output but if the muscles are not conditioning then you can go long but with minimal power. Obviously for MMA/Grappling we want a mix of both.

So if ones cardiac output is poor does that mean we need some extended lower volume sessions to develop an aerobic base? Something like rowing, jogging, or rounds on the heavy bag. Basically something that is more aerobic centric than anaerobic centric. I'm not saying do this all time, but something like once or twice a week. Is it possible to be far towards the anaerobic side of the curve?

Hope that makes sense. I could just not know what i am talking about at all.

I found his website interesting, i would like to come at my conditioning from more of scientific point of view, rather than here are a few hard metcons i have, lets do them.


Anton
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:23 PM   #2
Mike Prevost
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Anton

Cardiovascular capacity is not a limiter in performance except at the absolute maximum power output in activities like running. It is doubtful that most can reach a work rate that is limited by cardiovascular capacity during other activities unless you are very well trained in those activities. Even well trained triathletes generally cannot max their cardiovascular system on the bike like they can on the run. You can take an elite competitive swimmer and put them on a bicycle and they will havce a hard time keeping up with novice but reasonably trained cyclists. THey have the cardiovascular capacity but lack specific metabolic fitness in their cycling muscles.

Fitness is generally in the muscles, not the heart. The heart does adapt to the demands placed on it, but it is rarely a limiter. You don't slow down because your heart is tired. You slow down because of metabolic fatigue in the muscles. You train the muscles you use in competition across the same time and intensity domains you experience in competition and you will be well prepared.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:16 PM   #3
Steven Low
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I would pretty much agree with what Mike said.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:51 PM   #4
Kevin Perry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Prevost View Post
Anton

Cardiovascular capacity is not a limiter in performance except at the absolute maximum power output in activities like running. It is doubtful that most can reach a work rate that is limited by cardiovascular capacity during other activities unless you are very well trained in those activities. Even well trained triathletes generally cannot max their cardiovascular system on the bike like they can on the run. You can take an elite competitive swimmer and put them on a bicycle and they will havce a hard time keeping up with novice but reasonably trained cyclists. THey have the cardiovascular capacity but lack specific metabolic fitness in their cycling muscles.

Fitness is generally in the muscles, not the heart. The heart does adapt to the demands placed on it, but it is rarely a limiter. You don't slow down because your heart is tired. You slow down because of metabolic fatigue in the muscles. You train the muscles you use in competition across the same time and intensity domains you experience in competition and you will be well prepared.
I like the way you broke this down.
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Old 12-12-2008, 11:17 PM   #5
Derek Weaver
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Originally Posted by Mike Prevost View Post
Anton

Cardiovascular capacity is not a limiter in performance except at the absolute maximum power output in activities like running. It is doubtful that most can reach a work rate that is limited by cardiovascular capacity during other activities unless you are very well trained in those activities. Even well trained triathletes generally cannot max their cardiovascular system on the bike like they can on the run. You can take an elite competitive swimmer and put them on a bicycle and they will havce a hard time keeping up with novice but reasonably trained cyclists. THey have the cardiovascular capacity but lack specific metabolic fitness in their cycling muscles.

Fitness is generally in the muscles, not the heart. The heart does adapt to the demands placed on it, but it is rarely a limiter. You don't slow down because your heart is tired. You slow down because of metabolic fatigue in the muscles. You train the muscles you use in competition across the same time and intensity domains you experience in competition and you will be well prepared.
Welcome to the board Mike. I guess this more or less fits the "broad time and modal domains" approach then...
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:28 AM   #6
Mike Prevost
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Originally Posted by Derek Weaver View Post
Welcome to the board Mike. I guess this more or less fits the "broad time and modal domains" approach then...
Yes, definitely. The main point though is that performance fitness is in the muscles, not the heart. Unfortunately the fitness industry has been unduly influenced by the "cardiovascular training mafia." This has lead to ridiculous concepts like cross training, not for GPP, but for specific competition prep. For example, using swimming as a cross training activity to improve run performance. If you want to run better, you run, you don't swim. They both have a cardiovascular impact but swimming does little for run muscles, and fitness is in the muscles.

I am reminded of a post recently on another board where an injured runner inquired about using swimming to maintain his run cardiovascular fitness, so that when he was able to run again, he would have maintained his performance. Not going to work. Swimming does not work those run muscles enough to produce metabolic adaptations in them. However, water running does, mainly because it is recruiting and training a similar set of muscles, so they are metabolically challenged.

Long way of saying yes...it is all about recruiting and metabolically challenging the muscles across a variety of time and intensity domains. The heart will take care of itself.

Mike
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Old 12-17-2008, 08:10 PM   #7
John Hansen
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Glad you posted that question, Anton.

I've been reading Jamieson's articles, and would like to see what other knowledgable people think. However, I have to ask if the folks that commented have actually read Jamieson's articles, or whether they just commented on Anton's summary?

I don't expect too many on this board to fully endorse his ideas, as they are very different from the CF/CA model. However, he's had some (a lot?) of success with top fighters, is releasing a DVD soon, and appears to be gaining some traction on the interweb, so perhaps a deeper, critical look at his ideas is warranted.

http://www.8weeksout.com/articles.html (WFS) but you have to register to read the articles.

The articles "Explosive MMA Conditioning" and "Secrets of Muscular Endurance" would be the two that best represent his ideas.
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Old 12-19-2008, 09:24 AM   #8
Anton Emery
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Thanks for the input everyone.
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:58 PM   #9
Donald Lee
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Bumping an old thread.

http://www.8weeksout.com/articles/31...intervals.html

Quote:
First, before I get into the details of the this method let me make it clear that contrary to popular belief these days, intervals themselves are not the only way to train and there are benefits to old school "road work" type training that you do not get from intervals. Although it's become extremely popular lately to bash longer slow aerobic work as worthless and inefficient, the truth is that this type of training is still absolutely necessary to build the aerobic foundation that interval training should be built on.

What many "experts" these days don't seem to realize is that longer slower aerobic work is the most effective way to increase the size of the heart (specifically the left ventricle) and increase the ability of the body to deliver blood to the working muscles. The intensity of interval training is too high and the volume is too low to achieve these very important training effects so if your resting heart rate is still in the 60s, or even worse in the 70s, you need to be doing longer slower aerobic work before getting spending all your time doing intervals.
I got a resting heart rate of 73 and 66. I'm going to test it again in the morning. I retook my PFT today and got 24:48, which is pretty bad, but markedly better than my 33:35 from 1.5 weeks ago. I'm trying to figure out how to optimize my conditioning in the 2.5 months I have left.

Could anybody explain the effects of different methods on VO2 Max and Anaerobic/Lactic Threshold? They have a table here (http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com...-training.html) that describes all the different forms of aerobic endurance training: LSD, pace/tempo, interval, repetition, and fartlek. I can't seem to find much info on the net on what I'm looking for.

According to the descriptions, it seems like the Marines pretty much focus their training on pace/tempo most of the time. Basically, push yourself as much as you can on every long distance run. I'm wondering what would be the smartest training approach.
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:26 PM   #10
Steven Low
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What are you trying to do? Just drop your run times? What's the distance?
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