Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Nutrition > Paleo Diet

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-17-2009, 03:47 AM   #1
Jane Michel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 267
Default Food Combining (Paleo Diet Update)

Cordain's latest newsletter talks a bit about fat + carbs:

Quote:
Because it was relatively rare for our hunter-gatherer ancestors to consume carbohydrates and fats together for millions of years, our species may have became genetically dependent upon certain nutritional combinations.

The separation of macronutrients (fat, protein, carbohydrates) would have been a frequent feeding pattern for prehistoric humans because there is little evidence that they stored goods or food.1 When an animal was killed, it was entirely consumed within a 24-hour period similar to the behavior of modern-day hunter-gatherers.2 Except for a very small amount of glycogen stored in the liver and muscles, there is virtually no carbohydrate in food derived from animal sources. Carbohydrate sources came primarily from uncultivated fruits, vegetables, tubers, nuts and seeds, and these tended to be consumed while they were gathered.2 Consequently, carbohydrates generally were consumed separately from protein and fat, while protein and fat tended to be consumed together.

There is indeed data showing that the ubiquitous high-fat/high-carb meal of Western societies worsens elements of the post-prandial blood lipid profile more than simple high-fat meals.3, 4 Thus it may be that the separation of macronutrients that is similar to our evolutionary experience is an effective dietary method to prevent health shortcomings of the traditional high-fat/high-carb meal.

In the 1930's in the US, there was a series of popular diet books that advocated exactly this eating pattern.5,6 Clearly, the separation of fat from carbohydrate has many evolutionary clues pointing in its direction for improving health, but to date there have been no clinical trials evaluating this concept. But there are reasons to believe that avoiding fat in combination with carbohydrates may have powerful health benefits.

References are available at http://www.ThePaleoDiet.com/v5n3.shtml.
I didn't think there would be much, if any, of a benefit separating fat from carbs when eating Paleo. Has anyone here separated fats from carbs for more than two weeks? Did you notice anything?
__________________
Robb Wolf: I'd throw my hat in with the bleached, de-nuded bagel. Live dangerously.
Jane Michel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2009, 05:53 AM   #2
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

High fat + High carb meals is NEVER a good idea when you talk about weight loss or staying lean. High FFAs in a high insulin environment is not going to be good. When carbs go up, fats should go down....and visa versa.
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2009, 06:53 AM   #3
Jane Michel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 267
Default

MOD, how high do you mean when you say "high carb"?

The article says that "Carbohydrate sources came primarily from uncultivated fruits, vegetables, tubers, nuts and seeds". Can carb levels be considered high even when they are from these sources and on the assumption that the hunter-gatherers didn't stuff themselves silly with tubers?

My carbs come mostly from veg, and every now and then nuts, seeds, fruit and tubers. I suppose what I'm wondering is whether at this level of carbs there is any noticeable benefit from separating carbs from fat or whether there is no benefit or whether the benefit is negligible.
__________________
Robb Wolf: I'd throw my hat in with the bleached, de-nuded bagel. Live dangerously.
Jane Michel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2009, 07:21 AM   #4
Garrett Smith
Senior Member
 
Garrett Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 4,368
Default

Awesome. Makes sense to me, and my patients results would seem to confirm it.

For improved digestion, separating protein and carbs.

For decreased insulin/bodyfat, separating fat and carbs.

Works like a charm.

Biggest thing for me when I do Paleo was separating animal protein from fruit--but then again, I don't tend to eat that many tubers anyway.

Low-carb veggies aren't included as "carbs" in this approach.
__________________
Garrett Smith NMD CSCS BS, aka "Dr. G"
RepairRecoverRestore.com - Blood, Saliva, and Stool Testing
My radio show - The Path to Strength and Health
Garrett Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2009, 09:40 AM   #5
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alicia Zhuang View Post
MOD, how high do you mean when you say "high carb"?

The article says that "Carbohydrate sources came primarily from uncultivated fruits, vegetables, tubers, nuts and seeds". Can carb levels be considered high even when they are from these sources and on the assumption that the hunter-gatherers didn't stuff themselves silly with tubers?

My carbs come mostly from veg, and every now and then nuts, seeds, fruit and tubers. I suppose what I'm wondering is whether at this level of carbs there is any noticeable benefit from separating carbs from fat or whether there is no benefit or whether the benefit is negligible.
If you are eating "Paleo" carbs, don't sweat it too badly unless you plan on doing more starches with a meal...then just tone down the fats. It's the people who eat more "mainstream" like doing pasta with heavy cream sauce that are not helping themselves. Much like a pwo meal that is higher in carbs should also be smaller and leaner proteins, and less (if no) fat (all portions in comparison to what you eat at other times during the day or other non-workout days). Otherwise fat and protein compliment themselves nicely at any other time when carbs (starchy or grain based) are low.
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2009, 12:39 PM   #6
George Mounce
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 945
Default

This makes sense. You ate fruit and such on your way to kill the animal, once you killed it you ate just the animal.

Although in today's world, I'm not giving up eating my sweet potato with my steak. They just go too well together.
George Mounce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2009, 07:05 PM   #7
Chris Salvato
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 562
Default

Makes sense but it leaves room for more thought.

This sounds very Anti-Zone....but the zone works, primarily, for reducing insulin and carbs all together. I guess this approach would allow for higher insulin spikes with the absence of fats making the storage of carbs to glycogen stores being primary -- storage of fat being secondary.

Would women benefit differently from men? We see that women's reactions to IF, for example, can be much harder on them than their male counterparts (hormonally speaking, that is).

If we are going to use evolution as a justification to this eating habit, then I think it may need to be examined more from this perspective since hunter-gatherer societies usually had women that took care of the camp and children...
Chris Salvato is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2009, 07:22 PM   #8
Neill Smith
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 111
Default

I suspect it's more nuanced than just separating carbohydrates and fats, though that's a good heuristic. Nuts are mostly fat and have a decent amount of carbohydrate, and hunter-gatherers were probably eating nuts with fruit.
Neill Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2009, 05:54 AM   #9
George Mounce
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 945
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Salvato View Post
Makes sense but it leaves room for more thought.

This sounds very Anti-Zone....but the zone works, primarily, for reducing insulin and carbs all together. I guess this approach would allow for higher insulin spikes with the absence of fats making the storage of carbs to glycogen stores being primary -- storage of fat being secondary.

Would women benefit differently from men? We see that women's reactions to IF, for example, can be much harder on them than their male counterparts (hormonally speaking, that is).

If we are going to use evolution as a justification to this eating habit, then I think it may need to be examined more from this perspective since hunter-gatherer societies usually had women that took care of the camp and children...
The Zone works because it changes quality and quantity of calories, and yes insulin has a lot to do with it. I have my own real-world test subject (my mother who is a Type I diabetic) and she has been tracking for over a year on a Paleo diet the reduction in weight and needed insulin and the results are astounding. 30 pound weight loss, and an over 3/4 reduction in total insulin needed each day. She did not add any exercise; it was strictly a change in diet. The Zone isn't magical for insulin reduction, and I personally wish it would go the way of the dodo. Our bodies are a lot smarter than our conscious thoughts.

The women ate when the men got something. They didn't eat when nothing was found.

Evolution has nothing to do with how societies decided to use division of labor, because not all societies decided to leave the women back at camp. Nomadic tribes moved constantly.
George Mounce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2009, 07:10 AM   #10
Chris Salvato
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 562
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Mounce View Post
The Zone works because it changes quality and quantity of calories, and yes insulin has a lot to do with it.
The zone mostly works because of quantity reduction, not quality improvements. IF you read through the Zone books, Sears often says that you can eat candy bars as much as you like, just be aware that you will be eating a smaller quantity of candy than you would vegetables. I'll give you page numbers, if need be.

The Zone works because 1) the strict diet plan is extremely calorically restrictive and 2) the constant buffering of carb uptake causes less insulin spikes.

Quality of food has little to do with the equation which is why I never tell someone to get on the Zone without first improving their quality of food. Quality of food improvements, in my opinion, always trump any sort of "ratio planning" one can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Mounce View Post
The women ate when the men got something. They didn't eat when nothing was found.

Evolution has nothing to do with how societies decided to use division of labor, because not all societies decided to leave the women back at camp. Nomadic tribes moved constantly.
We can only speculate here. There are plenty of tribal societies where the women stood at camp and raised the children....constant availability to food that was foraged and horded. I don't think you can ignore the evolutionary implications of IF while trying to find evolutionary implications of Paleo.

You can't say "Oh, well, women may not respond better to IF because throughout history they were always with consistent access to food" and then ignore this statement when you say "Well women have access to the same foods as men all the time in these hunter-gatherer societies"

I am not drawing any conclusions - I am just saying it is food for thought and investigation.
Chris Salvato is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator