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Old 03-03-2009, 06:23 PM   #81
Kevin Perry
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aren't injuries more likely to happen if the feet are pointed straight forward? My feet point outwards naturally when squating and this feels much more natural and comfortable but with feet forward I feel like I'm going to kill my knees.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:22 PM   #82
Garrett Smith
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When I was a baseball catcher for 10+ years, I don't ever remember having my feet pointed straight ahead.

It also makes sense to me to be cutting on a slightly turned out front foot, for two reasons.

One, a straight-ahead (parallel) cutting foot is then placing a huge medial-to-lateral shear force across the knee.

Two, by slightly externally turning out the front/planted foot, that also allows the knee to stay over the foot, minimizing stress and maximizing safety of the knee during the deceleration.

Anyway, the only athletes I can think of that the feet parallel position is really beneficial for are skiers.
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Old 03-25-2009, 09:22 AM   #83
Jeff Hendrix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison View Post
First, thanks everyone for the advice.

Dave,

Yes, I think so. I'm about 6' tall, my brother is ~6'2-6'3... my hips sit about 1-2 inches higher than his do. Not sure about the exact numbers for squats and deads, haven't done them weighted in a few months, but my dead lift has always been at least 60 pounds heavier than my squat.

Thanks again.
Could someone please elaborate on this problem some more? I have almost exactly the same build and my deadlift is almost 100 lbs. more than my squat.

I just began mixing in HBBSs within the last week and am having soreness accumulate just above my patellas. I noticed it while I was squatting and notice it now (the next day). It hurt a little this morning stepping into and out of the shower when I bent my legs, for instance. Is this something that can be worked out over time somehow, or should I stick with LBBS? FWIW, I have not had trouble like this with LBBSs, front squats, overhead squats, or the squat portion of the clean. As a non-competitive wannabe OLer, I'm wondering if learning the high bar position at the possible expense of my knees would be worth it if I can do all of the other above-mentioned types of squats with no real problem. Can I still get the necessary quad development for these lifts without HBBSs?

Edit: If this is of any help, my knees feel better now than they did this morning.
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Old 03-25-2009, 11:19 AM   #84
Dave Van Skike
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Originally Posted by Jeff Hendrix View Post
Could someone please elaborate on this problem some more? I have almost exactly the same build and my deadlift is almost 100 lbs. more than my squat.

I just began mixing in HBBSs within the last week and am having soreness accumulate just above my patellas. I noticed it while I was squatting and notice it now (the next day). It hurt a little this morning stepping into and out of the shower when I bent my legs, for instance. Is this something that can be worked out over time somehow, or should I stick with LBBS? FWIW, I have not had trouble like this with LBBSs, front squats, overhead squats, or the squat portion of the clean. As a non-competitive wannabe OLer, I'm wondering if learning the high bar position at the possible expense of my knees would be worth it if I can do all of the other above-mentioned types of squats with no real problem. Can I still get the necessary quad development for these lifts without HBBSs?

Edit: If this is of any help, my knees feel better now than they did this morning.

I'm torn between never using the term high bar back squat ever again and the desire to evangelize about not 'f'ing up your knees. I really feel for people with knee problems or potential knee problems.

Front squats and deep back squats should not have to hurt your knees AT ALL. I've got zero cartilage under my kneecaps and have had a couple surgeries to relocate them. Thus my knees are extermely tricky and slight mistakes in squat form will leave me limping for a week. That said, I used squats to rehab over a period of 5 years.

I went from not being able to walk down a set of stairs in 2003 to squatting up to 3 days a week. I did this with bw squats usign a pole for balance (stripper squats) then goblet squats with a week kettlebell, then front squats and then progressing to a medium stance back squat. Now I'm pretty joe average squatter, but I can do it pain free as often as I like.

So WRT to form, my prejudices are pretty well laid out. I don't olympic lift and don't have any basis to disagree with what accomplished oly lifters do. that said, I think for 99 percent of people out there, there is a way to squat that will allow you to develop strength and will work consistently for you. Squats that irritate your knees are squats done wrong. If you find that a particular way of doing them is messing with your knees, stop doing that.


here's a crosspost from P and B that I think is a good summation.

Quote:
I think the following procedure is a pretty good way of determining a good bottom position for whatever style of squat you use. In other words, the idea is to find a bottom position that has your knees far enough forward so your quads can help out, but hips far enough back that your hammies/glutes can also provide a lot of power. This will vary with style of squat (high bar, low bar), as well as width of stance, degree of toe flare, etc. To make things easy, use whatever stance you normally use/prefer.

Instead of thinking about sitting back or keeping your weight on your heels, try simply descending while keeping a sense of your weight being evenly distributed on your feet (i.e. combined center of gravity over midfoot). In other words, simply balance and go all the way down, keeping an arch in your back and your knees tracking over your toes. Do this at first without weight, then try an empty bar, and go from there.

Go all the way down, feeling balanced, and sit in the bottom position like this. Hang out for a few seconds, get a sense of your balance at the bottom. Wiggling your toes can help establish that your weight is, in fact, evenly balanced, versus having shifted to the front/balls of your feet.

Now stand up (preferrably driving the hips straight up, though without GMing the weight). Repeat this a few times, getting a sense of what that bottom position feels like being evenly balanced. Give your brain a way of identifying this feeling by hanging out there a bit, and when you squat for realz, simply return to that spot.

I had the epiphany at some point that this is all Rippetoe was getting at in his humongous squat chapter. All these cues are simply a way of getting you + barbell evenly balanced at the bottom of a squat (CCOG over midfoot), given a few other qualifiers (back arched, knees out). If you are truly balanced, the rest will largely take care of itself - knees forward enough and hips back enough relative to whatever style of squat you're doing (low bar, high bar, etc).

I really like this summary and I think there is monsterous amounts of value in finding a way that works and doing it that way until you are strong.....really, actually strong. 2.5xBW or so. The distinction between HBBS and LBBS and at the other BS is not as important as getting strong with the lift.

here's a squat of great beauty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0yJDpqU99g

it's deep enough, the bar is on his back and it's 580x4. this is a back squat.

Oh yeah, on teh DL/Squat thing, I think this is pretty common unless you've got sick geometry for squatting and really short arms that make DL' hard.
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