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Old 02-04-2009, 07:07 PM   #11
Derek Maffett
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Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
I think I understand what you are saying about ankle extension but I also believe you are thinking in terms of that I am doing the ankle extension in order to somehow mimic or practice that which occurs in an actual snatch or C&J which I don't think is the case.

I believe my coach was having me initiate the movement with ankle extension simply as a means to create a slight separation from the bar in order to drop into the snatch recieving position, as opposed, to the more dramatic dip and go that is shown on the demo vids (i.e. like a mini-jerk or "heave" as Emily described). So like emily was saying, it is kind of an cross between the two (i.e. a middle progression) of simply dropping into a recieving position and doing the heaving version.

I realize you're trying to just elevate the bar a little, but your COG is shifting forward along with the ankle extension. It might not be necessary to shift forward just because the ankle extension is all on its own, but it seems considerably more difficult and perhaps coming up on pointless to extend the ankles dynamically without shifting COG forward.

I suppose it makes some sense if you consider that the moment the heels lift, your COG is driving you down with your ankles not cooperating with the descent. Kind of like if you were to cut two adjacent corner legs off the Eiffel Tower. The other legs refuse to buckle and allow the tower to fall straight, so the COG in the middle of the tower (or over the heel) would make the tower fall the only way it can - in the human parallel, that would be backwards, and it's exactly what was happening to me when I attempted it.

Okay, now let's take the Eiffel Tower's two remaining legs, hinge joint them, and set the whole thing down on the ground. If the two legs (ankles) start to rise up extremely quickly, the tower would just pop into the air and gravity wouldn't be able to cause much of that backwards tumble. (Note that we're also imagining that the two hinged legs have been slid closer to the middle of the Eiffel Tower.) Now, if the tower were raised slowly, it would fall because gravity affects the whole thing.

Now we add 100,000 tons of anti-matter underneath the tower. The explosive force sends it sky-high, but the hinged feet underneath the tower push up at that time. Free of much of the weight of the tower, the feet can push up powerfully instead of using a slow elevating force. The feet would then help more for high power production and would likely not unbalance the tower much if at all. Furthermore, when the tower starts to fall down (as it already kind of was when the feet were just slowly raising the tower), the feet will be able to fully retract and thus avoid unbalancing the tower.

Unfortunately, the tower is made of metal and cannot squat. It lands with locked knees and falls apart. Which probably isn't a bad thing because a two-legged Eiffel Tower exposed to large quantities of anti-matter isn't of very much use to anyone. Even the French.

Make sense?


So with that in mind, do you still think I am looking at problems in the future? If so, do you think Greg Everett's method of Snatch balance with the mini-jerk to create separation is better or should I go with Emily's suggestion of simply dropping into a recieving position.

Personally, I wouldn't try to use ankle extension if that's all I'm using. It works fine in conjunction with knee and hip extension, but it sounds problematic on its own and you seem to be taking the weight-shifty-forward-problem thing. You can always make use of a dip/jerk with less power. It will definitely be a problem if you get into the habit of shifting your COG forward.

I am thinking for this particular routine, Power Snatch + Snatch Balance + MH Snatch, I would opt for the dipping or heaving snatch balance so that I can use a weight that is still challenging for the power snatch and hang snatch. I will probably have to use lighter weight if I was simply going to drop into a recieving position.

Ew, that's programming. Ask Greg. Heavier sounds good.
...
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:16 AM   #12
Allen Yeh
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For the mid hang snatch portion when I was down at Leo's place in November he had us doing it a different way for hang snatches.

Instead of holding the mid hang position for a few seconds, we would go from the top and only go to the mid hang position quickly before reversing it. I'm not sure it makes as much sense written down as it did when he showed me.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:05 AM   #13
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A snatch balance is simply popping the bar off the shoulder just to unload it and drop under it as fast as possible in an attempt to catch it at arms length in the bottom of a squat.
"Unload" was the term I was going for. I think the ankle extension method with locked knees and hips was a way of "unloading" the weight without risk of cheating too much by using knees or hips. Next week when I do this routine I think I will try Greg Everett's method of unloading the bar, which is the slight dip in the knees to "unload" the weight. I will have to be very mindful not to make the movement into a "jerk".

I also think there is no ankle extension at all in the way Everett shows it done. The feet stay planted firmly on the ground with slight up down movement to "unload" the bar followed by the drop into the recieving position.

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Originally Posted by Allen Yeh View Post
For the mid hang snatch portion when I was down at Leo's place in November he had us doing it a different way for hang snatches.

Instead of holding the mid hang position for a few seconds, we would go from the top and only go to the mid hang position quickly before reversing it. I'm not sure it makes as much sense written down as it did when he showed me.
I showed the video to my coach and he said the same thing, that I should not pause on my mid-hang snatches. He said it should be a crisp change of direction.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:13 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Emily Mattes View Post
If you just need speed under the bar, do the strict, no push snatch balance. It's tougher. I think mainly for psychological reasons, because sometimes I'm ready to go and my brain says "What, you want to drop down with this weight on your back? I don't think so! We're staying right here!" Then it becomes incredibly difficult to force myself to drop.
Emily, Your comments above are very true. It is a very uneasy feeling of just dropping under the weight.

Everyone, I plan to repeat this workout next Tuesday or Wednesday. I will take everyone's advice into consideration and try to get some more video for you all...
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Old 02-05-2009, 10:07 AM   #15
Arden Cogar Jr.
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This is great thread.

I honestly had no idea the difference between a pressing/heaving/straight snatch balance until I attended a USAW club coaching cert this past weekend.

The way i would describe them is: presssing - pressing yourself under the bar; heaving - popping the bar upwards and dropping quickly to arms length under the bar; straight snatch balance - dropping quickly to arms length under the bar.

I was also taught that the Center of Gravity (for bar path) is the area between the ball and heel of the foot.

I'm a newbie to these lifts. And I did the cert to help coach my daughters more effectively. And I eventually want to form a WL club in the Charleston, WV area. So I would defer to others in the proper naming, etc.

Brian, you look good in what you're doing. Keep up the good work.

All the best,
Arden
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:40 PM   #16
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straight snatch balance - dropping quickly to arms length under the bar.
This is the one that benefits me the most. Gets me dropping into the right upper body alignment all the way down. "Stand up to sit down" as one coach/teammate says it at my gym.
Brian, I think you need more pull on your pwr snatch. You're almost leaning forward, rather than slightly leaning back to pull bar up, but I know others might think any leaning back is too far.
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:59 PM   #17
Derek Maffett
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Brian, I think you need more pull on your pwr snatch. You're almost leaning forward, rather than slightly leaning back to pull bar up, but I know others might think any leaning back is too far.
That was my impression too, but I wasn't sure since it's such a small percentage of his bodyweight.
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Old 02-06-2009, 02:47 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Brian Lawyer View Post
I showed the video to my coach and he said the same thing, that I should not pause on my mid-hang snatches. He said it should be a crisp change of direction.
Exactly, your coach is definitely more knowledgable than I am!


This is what I was trying to say but failed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMGMP...e=channel_page

That guy is a beast....200kg hang snatch....hell I'd be happy if I could even DL 200kg...
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Last edited by Allen Yeh : 02-06-2009 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:12 AM   #19
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According to Greg Everett's DVD I should be able to snatch balance more than I can actually snatch. He did not qualify that statement with a heaving snatch balance, so I assume regular. I was just playing around with 135lbs on that video I posted above. I can snatch 206lbs. So I guess I needed to add a ton more weight to those snatch balances to get any benefit.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:44 AM   #20
Dave Ogilbee
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According to Greg Everett's DVD I should be able to snatch balance more than I can actually snatch. He did not qualify that statement with a heaving snatch balance, so I assume regular. I was just playing around with 135lbs on that video I posted above. I can snatch 206lbs. So I guess I needed to add a ton more weight to those snatch balances to get any benefit.
It's a little daunting, I know. But balance thrown into programing can work wonders on confidence. I've been working more Snatch Balance and Tall Snatches especially into days where I feel i've got a little more left in the tank after workouts. Personally, i've just got issues getting under the bar fast enough with confidence and bringing more balance work in has helped me a lot.
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