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Old 02-14-2009, 02:13 PM   #1
Brian Lawyer
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Default D. Coaching vid SS - LBBS vs HBBS

I finally got some squat video for Digital Coaching. This is our lunch break workout. The client we are working at has a little workout room with several contraptions, but among them was a squat rack which was all we needed.

I wore these nike pants with a white stripe down the side because I thought it would make my squat depth easier to judge on camera but it actually made it worse. The pants were really baggy so while the line at the crease of my hip is accurate the line around my knee is actually sagging way below the top of my knee cap. I am pretty sure these are legit squats though, not necessarily ATG, but the crease in my hip is below the top of my patella.

This is the end of about a one month strength cycle during which I used the Starting Strength Low bar back squat method. From here on out I am focusing on pure O'Lifting and will only be using HBBS. The third set below was my attempt at HBBS.

Set 1, 5 x 360lbs using Starting Strength Low bar technique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eX9yWxseo

Set 2, 5 x 360lbs using SS LBBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmNGMIpE8ys

Set 3, 5 x 315lbs using High bar Positioning - These do not at all look like the pictures I have seen of HBBS on the CA WOD homepage. I'd appreciate any advice on these. Maybe it was just because I was doing them after the above LBBS that my body couldn't make the adjustment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gwTFo7Ax-A
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:31 PM   #2
Dave Van Skike
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honestly, the only visual difference is that you're clearly getting depth on the high bar and not the low bar..depth would be OK in some federations of PL but not the strict ones. If you are going to exploit low bar you need to get your feet wider...in fact I don't really think bar placement is that big of a deal until you figure out foot placement and hip drive.. do you box squat?

high bar looks more natural for you. I'd stick with that unless you want to compete in PL, or just work your feet out and don't worry about the bar for now.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:46 PM   #3
Robert Callahan
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Strong effort. Stance for the Low bar definitely needs to be wider. Maybe an inch or two out for each foot. And the toes need to be pointed out more so you can really shove those knees out and get the adductors involved. Other than that though they look pretty solid.

Tell your spotter friend to get out of there though. If you fail you have the safety bars in the rack. The last thing you need on a heavy squat is some guys hands on you distracting you from driving the weight on your shoulders. And worse case scenario you come close to failing, he helps you, and then you never know if you could have done it yourself.
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Last edited by Robert Callahan : 02-14-2009 at 06:43 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old 02-14-2009, 04:44 PM   #4
Donald Lee
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You definitely should go light for high bar squats until you get comfortable. If you want to exploit the full benefits of high bar squats for your Olympic lifting, you need to go ATG. Cheating in depth because the weight is too heavy will not be helpful for your OL.
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:24 PM   #5
Dave Van Skike
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I want to clarify my earlier statement and point out where I disagree with some other posts. I do think the last set of squats was deep enough.. and none of them were what I'd consider egregious or "cheating". all of these looked to be solid efforts near your 5RM and that's pretty good. There is a reason why you have 3 judges in competition..... everyone shaves depth at some point on a limit level squat.

ATG. ...I don't intend to be a prick but this "ATG" thing must die. "ass to ground" is only significant to anonymous youtube posters, BB.com regulars and the WOD mainpage comments..... there is pretty deep and deep enough to suit your purposes, you were not on target for the first, but maybe only a wee little dip away from the second.....if you are pushing your squat for it's own sake, there is much to be gained by not holding yourself to absolute squat perfection...perfect is the enemy of good...Frankly, I see some things in your squat that plague me, lack of hip flexibility to really open up on the low bar style is taking about 30-40 pounds away from you. . ...a little hip work and wider stance would benefit me as well.

As for spotting, if your spotter is experienced, a back spot is totally legit, especially at those weights which were challenging but not grinders by any stretch. I don't care what Rip says many many PL gyms have of people spotting thsi way. it's not ideal but it's better than no spotter. I spotted a guy this morning who was squatting to a box with 405 on the bar and 250 pounds of band tension. For him that's warm up weight but gives you a lot of confidence when someone has your back.

if you are good at bailing out of a squat forward, bumpers are nice and pins are better but I'd take a spotter over both any day of the week. A little motivation and being ready to take 5-50 pounds off the bar when needed is nice. Also, your spotter should be commended for his impeccable squat shoe style, squatting in loafers is sooo diesel
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:07 PM   #6
Donald Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
I want to clarify my earlier statement and point out where I disagree with some other posts. I do think the last set of squats was deep enough.. and none of them were what I'd consider egregious or "cheating". all of these looked to be solid efforts near your 5RM and that's pretty good. There is a reason why you have 3 judges in competition..... everyone shaves depth at some point on a limit level squat.

ATG. ...I don't intend to be a prick but this "ATG" thing must die. "ass to ground" is only significant to anonymous youtube posters, BB.com regulars and the WOD mainpage comments..... there is pretty deep and deep enough to suit your purposes, you were not on target for the first, but maybe only a wee little dip away from the second.....if you are pushing your squat for it's own sake, there is much to be gained by not holding yourself to absolute squat perfection...perfect is the enemy of good...Frankly, I see some things in your squat that plague me, lack of hip flexibility to really open up on the low bar style is taking about 30-40 pounds away from you. . ...a little hip work and wider stance would benefit me as well.

As for spotting, if your spotter is experienced, a back spot is totally legit, especially at those weights which were challenging but not grinders by any stretch. I don't care what Rip says many many PL gyms have of people spotting thsi way. it's not ideal but it's better than no spotter. I spotted a guy this morning who was squatting to a box with 405 on the bar and 250 pounds of band tension. For him that's warm up weight but gives you a lot of confidence when someone has your back.

if you are good at bailing out of a squat forward, bumpers are nice and pins are better but I'd take a spotter over both any day of the week. A little motivation and being ready to take 5-50 pounds off the bar when needed is nice. Also, your spotter should be commended for his impeccable squat shoe style, squatting in loafers is sooo diesel
For general strength development, there's no reason to have to go to full depth in the Olympic squat. I'm just assuming that Brian wants to use the squat as an assistance exercise for his OL.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:21 PM   #7
George Mounce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Van Skike View Post
ATG. ...I don't intend to be a prick but this "ATG" thing must die. "ass to ground" is only significant to anonymous youtube posters, BB.com regulars and the WOD mainpage comments..... there is pretty deep and deep enough to suit your purposes, you were not on target for the first, but maybe only a wee little dip away from the second.....if you are pushing your squat for it's own sake, there is much to be gained by not holding yourself to absolute squat perfection...perfect is the enemy of good...Frankly, I see some things in your squat that plague me, lack of hip flexibility to really open up on the low bar style is taking about 30-40 pounds away from you. . ...a little hip work and wider stance would benefit me as well.
I agree 100% on a BS. I disagree 100% on a C&J or snatch.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:29 PM   #8
Derek Maffett
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Biggest thing I'm seeing here is depth (HB, I think the others have commented on the LB enough). It's actually not just the fact that you don't have full butt-to-ankles depth here, but I believe I've been seeing the same thing in your other videos. You seem to be consistent about not hitting that position. I'm certainly not about to scoff at that kind of weight for the squats, but you need to reinforce the movement pattern of the full ROM squat for your weightlifting.

Like George implied though, I'm more concerned about carry-over into your regular lifting than a not-quite-full ROM HBBS with 315lbs.
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:42 PM   #9
Brian Lawyer
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This response is for my buddy Robert. See general response to all other contributors below this one. But I did have a little humor below regarding "spotting".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Strong effort. Stance for the Low bar definitely needs to be wider. Maybe an inch or two out for each foot. And the toes need to be pointed out more so you can really shove those knees out and get the adductors involved. Other than that though they look pretty solid.
Thanks for feedback Robert.

Only reason I wouldn't want to try a wider stance is because right now I only have two foot positions, pulling and recieving. Pulling = feet under hips, Recieving (squatting) = feet at shoulder width. I had a problem for the longest time of recieving the clean and snatch in too wide of a position so I definitly don't want to do anything to exagerate that problem.

That being said, next time I do SS LBBS I may play around with widening my stance. That could be a little while though because I am packing that particular style of squats away in my tool chest for a few months so I can strictly focus all my training around O'Lifting support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
Tell your spotter friend to get out of their though.
That is my buddy I was telling you about who I am trying to reverse his bodybuilding brainwashed mind. He comes from the kind of gym where they help each other out on the last rep and second to last rep on every exercise. You know, stand there and help each other curl and stuff.

Last time we worked out I had to tell him to sit on a bench like 10 feet away from me so he wouldn't touch me during squats. Personally, I am of the school of thought if a spotter places his hand on the bar it automatically doesn't count. He got pissed at me cause he was squatting and I didn't help him up with 185lbs. I just let him drop it on the pins. But he can bench a grip. Here he is benching 315lbs x 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccqz...e=channel_page.
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Last edited by Brian Lawyer : 02-14-2009 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 02-14-2009, 06:56 PM   #10
Brian Lawyer
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Default Great Feedback Guys!!

I appreciate all the feedback!!

Regarding Depth: You guys are talking about depth quite a bit. I realize I am not getting the ATG squats but is there any question that those are legitimate squats?? As in, crease in hip drops to below parallel with top of Patella. That was all I was shooting for on LBBS. I am purely focused on STRENGTH for those sets.

I need you guys to keep me honest not just stroke my ego like my buddies I was working out with...hahaha...j/k Nate and Tony if you read this.

Regarding squat style I am going to try to get some footage of a pure HBBS workout this week. I think I can do better if I warmup and re-set my brain and nervous system to think HBBS. I think because I did that last set for video purposes after several warmup and work sets of SS LBBS, my brain couldn't make the adjustment to HBBS. That is why my butt was still going out backwards instead of sitting straight down.

For my HBBS from now on, I am definitly shooting for full ROM, ATG, sitting my butt on Ankles squats from now on. I'll cut the weight drastically if I have to. My only worry is I believe when I attempt to get real deep, I sometimes just let go of all tension in the bottom which wreaks havoc on my hip flexors. Which leads to my last question below.

Regarding Hip Flexors: Do any of you all see anything in there that would clue you in on why my hip flexors are constantly sore....I think they have been better over the last couple weeks. but they still get sore quite a bit even when my quads and everything else is recovered.
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Last edited by Brian Lawyer : 02-14-2009 at 07:20 PM. Reason: Clarification
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