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Old 02-23-2009, 10:50 AM   #21
Dave Van Skike
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Gant is correct..

though before this turns to religion, I'll just say that 99% of my training time is built around trying to do things right, not "hard".

Intensity is a mathematical formula and I have never had a peak effort where "discomfort" or "pain" was the central object of my attention.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:15 PM   #22
Brian Stone
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I think that this might be getting blown out of proportion a bit. I think Greg Glassman's "Discomfort" is analogous to Mark Twight's suffering.

"Suffering provides the opportunity to exercise will and to develop grit."

I think he refers to pushing through the mental and physical lulls that beg the less focused to quit and finish out that last set, not push through joint pain or muscle tearing.

Clearly, such a statement could be dangerous to the uninitiated to any sort of proper fitness or that don't know their bodies and can't intuit the difference between lactic acid buildup and injurious activity.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:20 PM   #23
Gant Grimes
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Quote:
"Suffering provides the opportunity to exercise will and to develop grit."
Here, again, is where I part ways with other well-meaning folks.

There are certainly benefits--mental, physical, and psychological--in going to the brink. But you don't need to do it that often to get these benefits. I'll increase the metcon frequency and intensity 8 weeks out from an event. It's very good for peaking. Beyond that, I'll go all-out maybe once a month because I'm an idiot and a masochist and I enjoy this on a very limited basis. If I was smarter, I would only do it once every 6 months.

I'd also like to say that the concept of "suffering" during your workouts is BS. It's the standard boilerplate crap of wanna-be hardcore gyms and hardcore people. Yeah, training and competition can be extremely difficult, even to the point of breaking you. But if you're in a situation where you can leave the office for a couple hours a day to train, cuss, and spit on the floor, then you're not suffering. Let's leave that euphemism for those in the world who feel the real stuff.

Lastly, a training program isn't worth a damn if you can't recover from it. This becomes important as one passes 30.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:26 PM   #24
Daniel Olmstead
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Originally Posted by Gant Grimes View Post
Lastly, a training program isn't worth a damn if you can't recover from it. This becomes important as one passes 30.
I've spent the last year learning this point the hard way (which is probably the only way you really can learn it).
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:30 PM   #25
Duke McCall
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Interesting discussion. My wife and I have been having a very similar conversation lately.

I enjoy CrossFit and may revert to the mainpage CF WOD at somepoint (as my wife has) for variety and because I enjoy occasionally testing my metcon limits, but I wholeheatedly agree with the following:

Quote:
I think there is a risk, in CrossFit, of promoting this kind of "hardcore" overtraining. The subtle competition that comes from posting your times alongside others, either in class or online, is an effective motivator that can be perhaps too effective at times.
I also agree that this sort of overtraining is particularly dangerous and debilitating for those over 30 (or in my case 40). I have seen way too many overtraining injuries lately among the CF hardcore. (And no, I do not blame CF. I blame each person for failing to recognize his or her limits.)

Hopefully with age comes wisdom and the recognition that training harder does not equal training smarter.
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:38 PM   #26
George Mounce
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I'm not sure about the part of being past 30, wasn't there a dude who is well above 30 who does that marathon workout all the time?

I would have to say the effect is more on the CNS. People over 30 tend to have jobs, families, tons of other stress coming from a million different directions. These wear on you just as much as any workout can. I know on a heavy fly day with students who are acting like rocks in the air I have absolutely no desire to workout.

Much of this has to do with Duke's point. People don't see they are reaching their limit. Steven has been a big proponent of people seeing the need to back off, and I'm with him, rest and recovery is extremely important and people don't do it enough. The fault is on the people, their trainers, and the mindset that being super-hardcore day-in and day-out is the best way. Its not.
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:14 PM   #27
Garrett Smith
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The fault is on the people, their trainers, and the mindset that being super-hardcore day-in and day-out is the best way. Its not.
+1.

See my sig line if you haven't already (probably a million times with all my posts).

I feel like I have to drop my OL days when my stress levels get high (like the last freakin' month!). I've found that keeping my two days of gymnastics strength training, two days of hill walking, and two days of yoga work really well--I actually end the week feeling better than the beginning.

The following idea only matters to me, but I thought I'd share it anyway. When the weight of life gets too heavy, I drop training with the weights. I keep the yoga to keep me relaxed while tense, to improve my flexibility. I keep the gymnastics to maintain the strength to "hang on", "support" myself, and/or work on "balance". I keep the hill walking, well, because life can often be like a slow trudge uphill. However, as soon as the stress lightens, the weights come back in immediately, to keep me strong against the weight of life coming down again.

If someone gets some benefit out of that, great. If you think it's cheesy, no skin off my teeth.
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Old 02-25-2009, 01:07 AM   #28
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I find that the more I listen to my body, the less I hurt myself. The more I treat my body like a machine and impose my will upon it with predetermined sets/reps/progressions... the more I get hurt.

For every Jack LaLanne that can train heavy for 2 hours every day for decades, there are hundreds of people that get hurt if they attempt it. If you're a genetic freak who adores the pounding of long daily workouts; God bless ya, have at it. But if that's SO not you, don't sweat it.

Taking a day off doesn't make you a wimp. Taking a week off doesn't make you a loser. Quitting makes you a loser. Take a break as needed, but don't ever quit!
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Old 02-25-2009, 05:58 AM   #29
Peter Dell'Orto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Fury View Post
For every Jack LaLanne that can train heavy for 2 hours every day for decades, there are hundreds of people that get hurt if they attempt it. If you're a genetic freak who adores the pounding of long daily workouts; God bless ya, have at it. But if that's SO not you, don't sweat it.
I actually just re-read this quote, from Nate Green's "Built for Show," talking about athletes crediting God with their talent but themselves with their hard work:

"Any of us can get into better shape, but some genetically gifted individuals will always be able to work harder than their peers, and recover faster from their workouts."

I thought that was really good to put into a workout book, especially one aimed at young male trainees likely to go for broke if you let them. It's a good thing to keep in mind when you train. Not everyone has the same maximum strength/speed/whatever, and not everyone has the same recovery rate, either. Maybe you just can't work as hard as the next guy over, and if you tried you'd get hurt.

You can work hard, you should work hard, and you must work hard...but you don't have to judge your level of work by how hard others are working. You have to judge your level of work by what results you get out of it. If you go to the gym and don't go all out, but you keep improving and don't get hurt in the process, that's sufficient. Adjust your work to taste - try a little harder, see if it's still within your limits. If it works better, fine. If you start getting hurt or your results roll back, back down.

The 100% intensity, all-the-time, I work harder than you bit can be helpful for competition, but I think in the long run it wears you down. There has to be a reason they go all-out day-in/day-out in Special Operations selection courses, but they don't keep doing that after you get in. I'd suspect "results in more injuries than improvement" is the reason for that.
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Old 02-25-2009, 02:52 PM   #30
Justin Lascek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gant Grimes View Post
Here, again, is where I part ways with other well-meaning folks.

There are certainly benefits--mental, physical, and psychological--in going to the brink.

Lastly, a training program isn't worth a damn if you can't recover from it. This becomes important as one passes 30.
Some observations and points (apologies if they are redundant, I skimmed a portion of the thread).

1. Gant, without knowing the definitions of your terms, I would alter your three terms to physical (physiological), emotional, and psychological. I have a feeling that's sorta what you meant.

2. Gant's end point about age is entirely relevant to this discussion. He knows by now that if him and I did the same training protocol together, I'd recover faster since I'm much younger (not much Gant, but you get the point). We can't overgeneralize given that one variable that recovery is dependent on is age.

3. Since this discussion is in the Fitness/GPP section, I believe that scaling the work would be relevant to yield an intensity in which you can recover from. Or perhaps the management of your intensity depending on the amount of work needs to be managed in a more appropriately (something your coach should be doing). Regardless of whether or not your coach is capable of this, open the communication with him regarding your recovery/adaptation rates. If he drives your dick in the wall every day, especially if you're older, you're not going to adapt and progress.

Can you say dick in this forum?

Edit: There are plenty of other variables at stake as well. Nutrition (did somebody say steak?), sleep, rest (sets), rest (bouts of exercise), emotional stress, etc. Are they all in check?
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