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Old 03-07-2009, 10:42 PM   #11
Gavin Harrison
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Originally Posted by George Mounce View Post
Your weight is subject to change based on stimuli, I think its a little unjust to put a label on people based on what they are at now. If he was 130 then definitely, but 157-160? Damn I'm trying to get to 165, and do a planche. I wouldn't call someone who can do a planche not strong...hell look at Steven Low. He's around 130 and very strong, but for his bodyweight!
Hey, I'm not knocking body weight strength, or that everyone's goal should be to get big and strong, or even strong at all (though strength is way cooler than endurance :P ). However, someone eating 8+pieces of bacon+other breakfast meats for breakfast, and 3 burgers / chicken breast for lunch doesn't seem to have the "I want to be skinny and have an awesome strength to body weight ratio" thing going on in their head.

I'm 6' and 170ish. I'm really underweight for good barbell strength, my brother is 6'2" and 230ish, he's not. So, someone an inch shorter than me, 10 pounds lighter trying to get barbell strong should probably shoot for somewhere at least slightly heavier than me, say 180 to 200 lbs, perhaps more (louie simmons may say you need to be in the 242-275 range)... and we all know how hard putting on 20-40 lbs of muscle can be

Rippetoe is also 5' 8", like Steve Low, but is 215 lbs, not terribly fat. Rip's the same height as Steve Low, but there's about a 80 lbs difference in weight. Different weights for different goals.

Sorry for the rant-ish.
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:25 AM   #12
George Mounce
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Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison View Post
Hey, I'm not knocking body weight strength, or that everyone's goal should be to get big and strong, or even strong at all (though strength is way cooler than endurance :P ). However, someone eating 8+pieces of bacon+other breakfast meats for breakfast, and 3 burgers / chicken breast for lunch doesn't seem to have the "I want to be skinny and have an awesome strength to body weight ratio" thing going on in their head.

I'm 6' and 170ish. I'm really underweight for good barbell strength, my brother is 6'2" and 230ish, he's not. So, someone an inch shorter than me, 10 pounds lighter trying to get barbell strong should probably shoot for somewhere at least slightly heavier than me, say 180 to 200 lbs, perhaps more (louie simmons may say you need to be in the 242-275 range)... and we all know how hard putting on 20-40 lbs of muscle can be

Rippetoe is also 5' 8", like Steve Low, but is 215 lbs, not terribly fat. Rip's the same height as Steve Low, but there's about a 80 lbs difference in weight. Different weights for different goals.

Sorry for the rant-ish.
No, its not a rant its a good discussion. I guess the thing that got me thinking was the huge thread on the CF forum awhile back about why barbell strength doesn't work for gymnastic strength, yet gymnastic strength makes you a beast at gymnastics and makes you absolutely a beast for your bodyweight on the barbell. Safe to say, I haven't lost any strength since going to BW stuff (and I test it on my own ever couple of days) in fact I've gained it, most likely due to advances in CNS adaptation.

I agree - to go for big on the barbell, you need to be big. But I guess the way I see it, does everyone need an 800# deadlift? This is purely based on my own journey but in a 500# deadlift with me at 5'11", the adaptation is primarily CNS - it is not in gained muscle or bodyweight. If I wanted to push farther, I would have to gain more weight, but since that isn't a goal of mine I am happy where I sit.

Matthew what you really need here are goals (sorry for the tangent hijack). Eat a lot and work towards those goals. Your weight will figure itself out to obtain the goals you have chosen.
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:54 AM   #13
Greg Davis
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Rippetoe is also 5' 8", like Steve Low, but is 215 lbs, not terribly fat. Rip's the same height as Steve Low, but there's about a 80 lbs difference in weight. Different weights for different goals.
It's not just about different goals.. its about different body types.. just to use the above as an example, even if Steve's goals were to lift as much weight as possible on a bar that doesnt mean automatically that he's "underweight" until he gains 80 lbs.. I think that would be ridiculous. And conversely if Rip decided his goals were in gymnastics he probably could never reasonably drop 80lbs.

Advice along the lines of "just eat, eat, eat until you are 200lbs" based on someone's height is crazy if totally disregarding their body type / metabolism.

Not trying to antagonize anyone here. I just hate the thought of people forcing down food (or starving themselves)..
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Old 03-08-2009, 06:11 AM   #14
George Mounce
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It's not just about different goals.. its about different body types.. just to use the above as an example, even if Steve's goals were to lift as much weight as possible on a bar that doesnt mean automatically that he's "underweight" until he gains 80 lbs.. I think that would be ridiculous. And conversely if Rip decided his goals were in gymnastics he probably could never reasonably drop 80lbs.

Advice along the lines of "just eat, eat, eat until you are 200lbs" based on someone's height is crazy if totally disregarding their body type / metabolism.

Not trying to antagonize anyone here. I just hate the thought of people forcing down food (or starving themselves)..
It is about goals Greg. If his goal is to run 26.2 miles then I wouldn't tell him to gain any weight. If his goal is to bench 450, then he needs to get to work on the food part.

And yes, he would be underweight based on that goal (which isn't a body type). You think an NHL player who is 165 pounds is going to be picked up as a starting defenseman? Not a chance - they'd tell him to gain 40 pounds. The weight and structure of the body fits the goals desired by the brain. Since you didn't define body "type" there is nothing I can say to that...type tends to mean ectomorph, endomorph and mesomorph.

The only way to gain real weight is to force down food for those not used to it. The reason that GOMAD works is that its liquid, milk is awesome for said goal. You could use other things but either way you need to eat 2300 extra calories per day. Your average person isn't used to eating 5,000 total calories of real food. Of course, you could go the 12-pack of Coke option if that better suits your needs.

I'm not sure where you get people are starving themselves. My goal takes 10 weeks to complete at losing 1 1/2 pounds per week, and since I eat paleo with a bit of dairy, I'm far from starving - in fact I'm losing weight on 2,300 calories a day, a far cry from a starvation diet don't you think?
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Old 03-08-2009, 03:00 PM   #15
Gavin Harrison
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I agree with George on this one. Body type generally means ectomorph, endomorph or mesomorph, I guess you could throw body structure in to get a bit more detail or variation, but not much. So, the first three basically just mean you'll have to work harder to get your body to fit your needs, maybe. And the later just means you may have somewhat of a ceiling on how high you can go, kinda.

Form follows function. If you want your body's function to be a huge squat, bench and deadlift, or C&J / Snatch, or strongman or w/e, you'll probably be pretty big. If you're goal is to be able to defy gravity by holding your body horizontal to the ground, you'll probably be a little bit smaller, and probably necessarily low body fat, where a BB strength athlete wouldn't worry as much about bf, unless they're trying to make a weight class lower than 275, 308 or SHW..

Just as another data point, Roger Harrell is 5'11" and weighed about 180 lbs as a competitive gymnast. He said he had a hard time with horizontal straight body work (never achieved front lever / planche ?)
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:53 PM   #16
Greg Davis
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It is about goals Greg. If his goal is to run 26.2 miles then I wouldn't tell him to gain any weight. If his goal is to bench 450, then he needs to get to work on the food part.
I agree if were taking a goal like a 450 bench as a premise, then a lighter person will have to jam the food in. I just think one shouldn't ignore that goals interact with your genetics/bodytype/metabolism whatever you want to call it, and that it doesn't help to just have everyone who wants to improve their bench hit a 200lb bw as a starter.

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You think an NHL player who is 165 pounds is going to be picked up as a starting defenseman? Not a chance - they'd tell him to gain 40 pounds.
I'd say if you need to gain 40lbs for something thats pretty extreme- your goal is unrealistic. Unless its a young athlete with a long planning curve.. ie. yes form does follow function but i would have more faith in that over the long term not short term. You definitely have a good point there though, I think I'm just being critical of the extreme cases whereas in most moderate cases you are right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Mounce View Post
The only way to gain real weight is to force down food for those not used to it. The reason that GOMAD works is that its liquid, milk is awesome for said goal. You could use other things but either way you need to eat 2300 extra calories per day. Your average person isn't used to eating 5,000 total calories of real food.
I just dont think anyone should be eating 5000+ kcals per day. Seems wrong on a few levels. Some people can gain or maintain a high bodyweight anywhere from 2-4000 kcals.. but get up in to the 5000+ range and its like c'mon thats a little ridiculous unless you were talking some serious hardcore reasons to pursue such a goal.

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I'm not sure where you get people are starving themselves. My goal takes 10 weeks to complete at losing 1 1/2 pounds per week, and since I eat paleo with a bit of dairy, I'm far from starving - in fact I'm losing weight on 2,300 calories a day, a far cry from a starvation diet don't you think?
I dont think too many (guys) are starving themselves. But in your case you are shooting for a weight range that is likely very reasonable given what your weight would gravitate to at an "average/normal" caloric consumption somewhere near 2-2.5k per day.
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Old 03-08-2009, 05:57 PM   #17
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Went pretty off topic there.. and not so helpful to Matthew (but maybe other cases).

Reread your original post.. dude if you are HUNGRY that is great scale up your meal size until that mellows out. You can't really "overeat" until you reach a point where you aren't hungry for your next meal. And you're at the age where your body might be responding really well to some heavy weights and wants to put some permanent muscle mass on.. sounds good to me.
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Old 03-08-2009, 06:19 PM   #18
Dave Van Skike
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I'd say if you need to gain 40lbs for something thats pretty extreme-
not really. 40 pound is not much when you're 160.
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Old 03-08-2009, 07:57 PM   #19
Matthew Bacorn
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Good stuff yall

I think it really comes down to function more than bodyweight, no matter what the goal.

Train for your goal, and eat to facilitate proper recovery from your training. Im willing to bet your bodies will tell you what you need if you give it two things:
-good, quality fuel
-a consistent stimulus

and im not even sure that we need the second one. In the end, I think I really just need to forget about the details and eat, lift, and sleep, making sure that I can recover fully. I would rather eat a little too much and recover fully then not eat enough and tax my body that way. At least for right now
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