Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Training > Fitness, Strength & CrossFit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-04-2009, 03:39 AM   #31
Robert Johnson
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 38
Default

If people got fatter with an extra 50-100 grams of carbs, why not recommend removing the 'extra' carbs, instead of almost all of them?

I don't understand why grains are labelled as crap.

I know they aren't as nutritious as vegetables, but lots of fat isn't expecially nutritious, either, is it?

---

Is the Asians are adapted to carbs idea proven?

---

As for the oririginal topic -

I wouldn't suggest making major dietary moves away from carbohydrates, which will surely work for military training, whereas a low carb diet might be a big problem for you, in practical or physical terms, also with perhaps having to change from one diet to another when training begins, with associated problems, regardless of whether its better for you in the long run or not. Try it later, if you want.
Robert Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 04:37 AM   #32
Darryl Shaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Fury View Post
Neither. We are referring to different metabolic states.

Phinney's 1983 cyclist study used sodium/potassium supplementation while the cyclists were undergoing keto-adaptation and continuing to train hard.

The Inuit require no special supplementation since they are already keto-adapted.

I did not say "no studies", I said the studies that "need" to be done. i.e. studies in fully keto-adapted individuals. If you are so inclined, please tell me how many of your studies were conducted on individuals who were fully keto-adapted for greater than 4 weeks?
Do you actually read the studies you cite? Phinney's study (link) was conducted on athletes who spent "4 weeks on a eucaloric ketogenic diet (EKD) providing 83% of energy as fat, 15% as protein, and less than 3% as carbohydrate.". He concluded that "submaximal endurance performance can be sustained despite the virtual exclusion of carbohydrate from the human diet." That's it, submaximal endurance can be sustained on a ketogenic diet but who cares about submaximal performance? Nowhere did he state that athletic performance was improved by a ketogenic diet indeed he concluded by stating that "anaerobic (ie, weight lifting or sprint) performance is limited by the low muscle glycogen levels induced by a ketogenic diet, and this would strongly discourage its use under most conditions of competitive athletics."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Fury
Studying non keto-adapted people after tossing them onto a ketogenic diet and then stating they had performance deficits is just a waste of research dollars. Of course they did. That's like saying, "I put diesel in my gasoline engine and it ran terrible." and then concluding that diesel is lousy fuel.
Good analogy; fat is a lousy fuel for a species that's been adapted to a high carb diet ever since we crawled out of the oceans and headed for the trees.
Darryl Shaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 04:48 AM   #33
Darryl Shaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 708
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arien Malec View Post
This is factually untrue. The absolute amount of protein and fat has barely budged over the years (fat went up a bit for men, down for women, 50 kcal difference either way). The increased caloric intake has been of carbohydrates, and particularly of the processed sort (we've also seen a rather profound switch from sources of sat fat - red meat and whole milk - to PUFAs from vegetable oils).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
While calories did increase.....% fat/protein went down while % carb increased....so Yes, they did become fatter because of excess carb/cal consumption....too bad you can't blame red meat for this one.
Americans got fat because portion sizes and the availability of cheap high calorie density foods increased while levels of physical activity decreased. There is nothing inherantly obesogenic about carbohydrates, indeed most of the worlds population eats a high carb diet without getting fat, so to single out carbs as the sole cause of Americas epidemic levels of obesity is a gross oversimplification of the problem.
Darryl Shaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 05:34 AM   #34
George Mounce
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 945
Default

I was thinking:

None of you have defined "high carb", but you all agree on ketogenic as this is an established state of metabolism. What makes a diet "high carb" according to the brains in this discussion? 60%? 70%?

Charts! Thanks MOD, a good chart can go a long way. Unfortunately my current job is chart and statistics hell so I can appreciate a chart.

Darryl got me curious with his comment about high carb so I found some charts to further the discussion: http://www.fao.org/docrep/w8079e/w8079e0g.htm#TopOfPage

Major sources of carbohydrate - world production 1961-1994



Energy from the dominant starch staples, 1990-1992




Energy from carbohydrate by food group and as a % of total carbohydrate. Food balance data -1964 and 1994




Finally: http://www.fao.org/docrep/w8079e/w8079e0e.htm#TopOfPage

Also since we all like studies, here is one done: Association between dietary changes and mortality rates: Israel 1949 to 1977; a trend-free regression

Also the WHO disagrees that only the US and Europe are fat and getting fatter (http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactiv...ts/obesity/en/)

Quote:
The likelihood of developing Type 2 diabetes and hypertension rises steeply with increasing body fatness. Confined to older adults for most of the 20th century, this disease now affects obese children even before puberty. Approximately 85% of people with diabetes are type 2, and of these, 90% are obese or overweight. And this is increasingly becoming a developing world problem. In 1995, the Emerging Market Economies had the highest number of diabetics. If current trends continue, India and the Middle Eastern crescent will have taken over by 2025. Large increases would also be observed in China, Latin America and the Caribbean, and the rest of Asia.
George Mounce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 08:36 AM   #35
Arien Malec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,035
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Americans got fat because portion sizes and the availability of cheap high calorie density foods increased while levels of physical activity decreased. There is nothing inherantly obesogenic about carbohydrates, indeed most of the worlds population eats a high carb diet without getting fat, so to single out carbs as the sole cause of Americas epidemic levels of obesity is a gross oversimplification of the problem.
Darryl -- I don't disagree that healthy diets can be maintained on with a range of macronutrient ratios, including high carb. But you are factually incorrect when you assert that Americans ate more of everything (all the caloric increase was in simple carbohydrates), and that levels of physical exercise decreased (physical exercise increased.
Arien Malec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2009, 08:46 AM   #36
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw View Post
Americans got fat because portion sizes and the availability of cheap high calorie density foods increased while levels of physical activity decreased. There is nothing inherantly obesogenic about carbohydrates, indeed most of the worlds population eats a high carb diet without getting fat, so to single out carbs as the sole cause of Americas epidemic levels of obesity is a gross oversimplification of the problem.
Same beating of a dead horse.....different thread.....

Yes....there is a huge difference between real carbs and processed carbs
Yes....real carbs are not evil
Yes....people eat too much crap
Yes....eating too many calories will make you fat

You just can't say "carbs" and not differentiate between fruits/veg and cereals/pasta.....high carbs....low carbs...who cares....just eat real carbs. Trying to argue one way is inherently better when all carbs are "real", is wasting time over the 1% that matters in overall longevity.
__________________
Fitness Spotlight
The IF Life
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2009, 08:26 AM   #37
Brandon Enos
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: California
Posts: 171
Default

Sigh.....this has gotten out of hand and has drifted far from my original question...haha diet is not a problem for me. I've been paleo/primal solid (except for a small cheat when on vacation or the like) since the beginning of January. MLB. Meat, leaves, berries, that’s all I've been eating. Lots of meat, veggies, and fruits. I throw in some nuts, and occasional dairy (in the form of butter or cheese made from raw milk). I've also been IFing on and off for a few weeks at a time. Found that, for me at this time in my life, I can only do it for little spurts of time and keep my sanity.

My original question was centered solely around the fear that if I worked out with weights to much now and developed any extra mass, and then switched to more of an endurance type routine once I entered basic or prior to, excess mass that was not being used (you need less muscle mass to do a pushup at ~180 pounds bw than to bench press a ~350 pounds or more barbell) would end up being stored as body fat.

This question was answered by a few of the 35 posts, so thank you to those who answered it.
Brandon Enos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2009, 11:05 AM   #38
Steven Low
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,091
Default

Yeah dude, each of the types of body tissues doesn't magically convert to another...

And as long as you eat enough you shouldn't lose muscle mass.

Pretty simple.
__________________
Posts NOT intended as professional medical, training or nutrition advice.
Site // Bodyweight Strength Training Article // Overcoming Gravity Bodyweight Book
Steven Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2009, 12:11 PM   #39
Brandon Enos
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: California
Posts: 171
Default

I dont mind losing the mass at all, my only concern was conversion. But it sounds like as long as Im active and eating clean, Ill burn the muscle for energy and just become lighter/smaller.
Brandon Enos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2009, 03:13 PM   #40
Steven Low
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,091
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Enos View Post
I dont mind losing the mass at all, my only concern was conversion. But it sounds like as long as Im active and eating clean, Ill burn the muscle for energy and just become lighter/smaller.
No.

There's no conversion. At all. Ever.

Your body can use it for energy IF you're not eating enough (hence hypocaloric diet). But otherwise, it won't.
__________________
Posts NOT intended as professional medical, training or nutrition advice.
Site // Bodyweight Strength Training Article // Overcoming Gravity Bodyweight Book
Steven Low is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:03 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator