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Old 05-16-2009, 08:42 AM   #91
Donald Lee
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If wanting to be physically prepared for everything were really the goal, CrossFitters would be better off learning martial arts/self-defense, parkour, mountain climbing, etc. Skill training is usually much more important than just being able to run around and do a bunch of stuff without tiring. Motor control just doesn't sprinkle itself over everywhere because you can do the big lifts and do kipping pullups.
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Old 05-16-2009, 09:50 AM   #92
Justin McCallon
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I still think that the goal of crossfit is to get people as prepared as possible for any and every eventuality.
People actually bought that line? That's just a lame marketing gimmick.

CF's goal is to increase work capacity over broad modal domains, and the main site and all the affiliates pretty much only focus on that as it relates to easily-implemented weightlifting/bodyweight workouts. It's just a cool concept that gives gym rats a chance to compete at something.

That said, I think some of the hate is a little over-the-top. It's a given that neither a top CF'er nor a decathlete is going to be very elite at a single thing. That doesn't make the totality of the accomplishments any less impressive, imo.
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Old 05-16-2009, 10:03 AM   #93
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Donald,

I agree. Knowledge trumps all in most pursuits. So before we "argue" about the efficacy of this training program or that one, we ought to just admit that we train for fun, to be strong, to look good, or whatever... and stop trying to justify it with some kind of ass-kicking or survivalist nonsense.

As for me, I train because I enjoy the hell out of it, because I dont want to be 40 and fat and out of shape, because I want to maintain my health for as long as possible, and because its just cool to lift heavy stuff.

And sticking to the always relevant zombie theme, when they come, I know my 357 mag will be more useful than my clean and jerk.

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Old 05-16-2009, 10:06 AM   #94
Chris H Laing
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Originally Posted by Donald Lee View Post
If wanting to be physically prepared for everything were really the goal, CrossFitters would be better off learning martial arts/self-defense, parkour, mountain climbing, etc. Skill training is usually much more important than just being able to run around and do a bunch of stuff without tiring. Motor control just doesn't sprinkle itself over everywhere because you can do the big lifts and do kipping pullups.
Many crossfitters do other sports besides crossfit, and they use crossfit to get better at their sports. Rob Miller uses it for rock climbing, Pat Barber uses it for volley ball, Dutch uses it for hand ball (or something...). The point is that their increased fitness from crossfit lets them spend more time working their sport specific skills without getting tired as quickly as people who just do sport specific skill work, which gives them an edge over the competition.

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Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post
People actually bought that line? That's just a lame marketing gimmick.

CF's goal is to increase work capacity over broad modal domains
How does increased work capacity over broad time and modal domains not prepare you for random tasks? If you give me a situation, I am pretty sure I can give you a reason why increased work capacity would benefit you in that situation.
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Old 05-16-2009, 10:08 AM   #95
glennpendlay
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Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post
That said, I think some of the hate is a little over-the-top.
I have not mentioned CrossFit in any of my posts on this thread. I am talking about the attitude, no matter where it comes from, that "extreme" amounts of training or extrame forms of training are somehow justified in a practical way. I think some people tell themselves that, some of those people are CFers and some are not, and I just disagree with this concept.
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Old 05-16-2009, 10:33 AM   #96
Chris H Laing
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Originally Posted by glennpendlay View Post
I have not mentioned CrossFit in any of my posts on this thread. I am talking about the attitude, no matter where it comes from, that "extreme" amounts of training or extrame forms of training are somehow justified in a practical way. I think some people tell themselves that, some of those people are CFers and some are not, and I just disagree with this concept.
Well said Glenn! It is not crossfits fault that some people push it too hard too fast and end up injuring themselves.
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Old 05-16-2009, 12:53 PM   #97
Jonathan Owen
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They were in PP, I do believe.



Absolutely. I loved Liar's Poker.

And Nolan Ryan was more an example of longevity at a high level than he was elite. He never won a Cy Young...
Yeah! I am an idiot! I meant Michael Johnson.

Stephen,

I think those standards are impressive, and I have a teammate who meets the 181 Lb. elite standard and pulled it in competition with 575, to set a national teen record when he was 19 yrs. old. I would never presume to diminish his accomplishment, or anyone who hits the numbers on that list. I am not even close to hitting the elite # for my weight. That being said, the elite standard for an adult male 320#'s+ on that table is 617. Andy Bolton has pulled over a 1,000 in competition, Konstantinov has pulled 948 @275,the elite standard by the table for that weight is 602. In my opinion, (whatever thats worth) the title of elite athlete carries significant weight, and means you are one of the top performers when compared to the rest of the competitive field. This is mostly due to my experience at my first Oly meet; I had a big head because I was training like, "An elite athlete", I was brought back down to earth very quickly, when I watched someone like Peter Musa. I look back and wonder how I had such a high opinion of myself, when I was nothing but a beginner(still am), with very beginner #'s.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:03 PM   #98
Garrett Smith
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Jonathan,
IMO, each person would have to define "elite" status for each sport, unless it is already done (ie. in PL).

For example, in basketball, I would say that anyone playing at the college and NBA level is elite...or an easier way to say someone is elite in a very general sense is that they make their living at it (or at least pay the bills).

To say that only a handful of people in a sport are "elite" is a bit too restrictive. Limiting it to probable future "Hall of Famers" is too far IMO.

Every level of athletics is going to have their "elite", be it tee-ball or pro sports.

I'd have to say I also doubt that Rippetoe and Kilgore took their consideration of "elite" standards lightly. You may disagree. I personally think that anyone DLing 3x BW is in very elite company.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:24 PM   #99
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elite is a troublesome word. PL is weird because, for one, there are so many feds that national records and state records esp. get contested by maybe 4 people in the class at a given meet.

Elite is contextual. When I raced the Elite Class in MTB, I was by no stretch elite, on a given race there would be 40-50 other guys contesting it but about 3-4 guys who were wining 90% of the time. They might be considered elite but that's it.

So, in terms of context, if there are but a handful of people worldwide who can do something, that's elite...the 99.999999th percentile guys, the 5.14 climbers, etc.

the problem with specialization versus general phys ed type bodybuilding (cf) is that someone who's barely good, just a decent deadlifter (600) or an who has an OK snatch, (120k) has made SIGNIFICANT efforts towards their goal but has just scratched the surface of what's possible in that arena. whereas the CF bodybuilder is "ready for anything" but not even capable of the bottom end in the specialized discipline. Does this mean some aren't capable? no, in fact lots of people use similar methods all the time to shore up weaknesses..but when you spend all your time hunting weaknesses, you don't build any strengths. So when it comes to being truly competitive in an specific arena, (like football) for the most part the "CF method" won't take you there, and most CF'ers don't even try, what's worse is the foundational principal (fitness) of the "method" is dismissive of anyone who does.
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Old 05-16-2009, 03:24 PM   #100
Justin McCallon
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Originally Posted by glennpendlay View Post
I have not mentioned CrossFit in any of my posts on this thread. I am talking about the attitude, no matter where it comes from, that "extreme" amounts of training or extrame forms of training are somehow justified in a practical way. I think some people tell themselves that, some of those people are CFers and some are not, and I just disagree with this concept.
Glenn, (as much as I hate to say this) I disagree with you over some points and agree with you on others. But, that point wasn't directed at you. I agree with you on this point.

The part I disagree with you about (and we just might have to disagree) is the general fitness terminology. I understand your "fit for what" point, and it makes sense. I also think that the "when the zombies come" theory of CF is pretty stupid. But, as a general point, whatever you want to term it, CF's goal of increasing work capacity over broad time and modal domains makes sense to me. I consider this "general physical fitness." I think your "fit for what" question is a "specific physical fitness" question. You were obviously more specifically fit for wrestling when you were doing it.

But, general physical fitness, as I think it should be defined, is about being most fit for a random strength/power/endurance/agility/speed/stamina event (or combination) that does not require significant experience or other skills not listed. I think you CAN train and develop that. I don't think it will have any more carry over to "real life" than Oly lifting, but it's something fun to develop and challenge yourself with, I think.



Also, I didn't mean to come out as overly authoritative. It's just my opinion, but I personally disagree with some of the sentiments of some of the posts. i.e.
Quote:
by their own definition, as soon as you start to show a glimmer of promise, meaning an above average but not yet elite level of ability (600 DL, 400 bench, 4 minute mile) you're no longer "fit".
I think the top CF athletes are going to be much more elite at CF in a few years (like MMA athletes a few years back), but eventually overall they will be every bit as elite as the top powerlifters, runners, etc, in the same way that the top decathletes are as elite as the top 100m sprinters. They aren't elite in any one discipline, but in an overall sense, they are just as elite. Maybe only .05% of the population can bench 500 lbs raw. Likewise, only .05% can bench 325lbs raw, run a 5:15 mile, and do 50 pull-ups (Made up numbers). The two athletes are equally elite.

Fake edit: now that I see what you are getting at, I actually mostly agree, Dave. I think the idea of main-site CF should be used to get better at either CF, or to provide a background for something that requires very similar physical skills (i.e. MMA).


Quote:
How does increased work capacity over broad time and modal domains not prepare you for random tasks? If you give me a situation, I am pretty sure I can give you a reason why increased work capacity would benefit you in that situation.
As Glenn (and others) mentioned, if you want to be ready for something random, increasing your general physical fitness (the definition me and you use) is not going to help much relative to reading survival guides, or joining the Marines, or getting rich. I haven't seen a "AMRAP: go into the wilderness and survive for a day" WOD.
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