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Old 05-19-2009, 08:49 PM   #161
Andrew Wilson
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Anyone watching "4th and Long"... started thinking while these guys were puking.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:10 PM   #162
Dave Van Skike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post


I don't really care that much about whether CF came up with something new or not, but if this is your line of thinking, then has anyone come out with anything new?
Can you show me any pre-1960s programs that: (a) employed the ordinary concurent method, (b) mixed running/rowing, gymnastics, and weightlifting in highly-intense cardio circuits, (c) performed highly varied 1-5 rep max work about 3 of every 12 days, and (d) randomized their workouts?

Note sure where you got c, everyone does that. ..and d sounds like PE class from 5th grade on.

couple books to consider: Keys to Progress, John Jesse's Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia, The Way to Live.

Justin, the problem here is you keep using words that are part of this weird specialized lexicon. Modal Domain isn't real...there is no biological modal domain, I can't eat a modal domain. How does it help me win? will it get me a beer? These are my concerns.

If modal domain doesn't help me meet my goals, it's useless.


PS...The answer to who is strongest is always going to be "it depends"

strength is a skill, WSM tests mega strength and micro endurance over a bunch of different events, which are learned. same thing with the snatch and clean and jerk. who's stronger...it depends on how you measure.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:47 PM   #163
Justin McCallon
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Quote:
Note sure where you got c, everyone does that. ..and d sounds like PE class from 5th grade on.
I used the word "and" because it does all of them in the same program. If you could link me to a program that is essentially the same as CF from the 1950's that would end the discussion.

That said, I really don't care much about this point as I couldn't care less whether or not CF is revolutionary.


Quote:
Justin, the problem here is you keep using words that are part of this weird specialized lexicon. Modal Domain isn't real...
So your problem is with the term and not the concept? A modal domain (I have never actually looked this up, haha) is just a movement pattern with a certain amount of resistance. i.e. the time domain may be ten seconds. You want to maximize power output over that ten seconds. The modal domain can be agility cones, or reps on bench press with 145lbs, or 1-leg squats, or whatever.
What other term would you like me to use to describe "a movement pattern, possibly with a certain amount of external resistance?"


Quote:
there is no biological modal domain, I can't eat a modal domain. How does it help me win? will it get me a beer? These are my concerns.
There is no biological slowly.
That doesn't make any sense at all, does it?

Again, I have not suggested that increasing WCABTAMD will help you compete at your sport. I happen to be "defending" a CF-coined concept, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything CF has said. I don't. And, in fact, I have tried to make it a point over and over that increasing WCABTAMD is not the ideal way to train for your sport unless it's MMA or something less popular that is kinda similar (basically, your sport needs to require a very broad spectrum of abilities).
Additionally, again, the CF main site WODs are not the only way to increse WCABTAMD... Another way might be doing strongman as a LHW for 3 years and then joinining the track team or something.
There are competitions that, in themselves, test to see who has the best WCABTAMD. This doesn't mean that getting good at these competitions means you'll be a great rugby player.


Quote:
If modal domain doesn't help me meet my goals, it's useless.
.
This might help clear up all the arguments (basically, I think you are assuming I'm arguing something that I am not). Let's make an analogy.

You: I do strongman (I think? or were you the cyclist?).
Me: There is a thing called "spatial intelligence." (I think) You can improve your spatial intelligence, and there's various ways to measure it. (Note: I would not be saying ANYTHING else, or making any kinds of implications)
You: But how will that help me with strongman?! What is the point of improving spatial intelligence if it doesn't help me get better at strongman?!
Me: I never said it would help you get better at strongman. I'm just saying that you can improve it and theoretically measure it.


Quote:
strength is a skill
I understand what you're saying, but I think of log presses, c&j, tire flips, etc to be skills (I understand strength is very broad, and that you have to apply strength to different movements, and a person strong in one might be relatively weak in another).

Quote:
who's stronger...it depends on how you measure.
Words like "strength" and "flexibility" and "speed" are definable. If something is definable, you can generally determine who is stronger by measuring it (at least theoretically), and you can get a set answer. And then there's no debate.
(In reality, what really happens is that something like 'strength' is defined exceptionally broadly, and so it would include an infinite number of lifts and movements of external objects, and it therefore becomes hard to form a concrete answer when one guy is really strong in one set of ten lifts, another is really strong in another ten lifts, and they've never done the other million movements that would theoretically be needed to be tested in order to reach a concrete conclusion ... but if someone is really good at overhead press and jerk, it stands to reason that they're really good at seated overhead press, and so you can make inferences and make decisions)
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:14 PM   #164
Gavin Harrison
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Justin & Dave,

The argument is getting silly and overly long winded, I think. But here are my observations and opinions, going to try to keep this short.

YES, crossfit can be worthwhile, yes it increases fitness per crossfit's model, yes it's may be a good way to stay healthy and fit into old age, though, so do a lot of things besides being sedentary.

But here's the thing you need to realize, Justin.. we're talking about sports performance here. Greg Glassman himself has said, if you're training for sports you know the domains, skills and times even when it starts and when it stops, so you can and should train according to those parameters. So then, why crossfit? Well, say you're training for military, LEO, or firefighting. You don't know any of the things you do with sports, so how do you train for it? By training GPP almost exclusively, maybe focusing on a few aspects given typical job requirements.

Now, here's what Dave's been saying. If you're not training for ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR, sport or career, then you are doing what is classically known as "Bodybuilding" in the pre-steroids, even pre-contest era. What people have classically done for bodybuilding is even VERY SIMILAR to what CF currently employs.

They did things like:
1. Train in circuits of calisthenics / weights.
2. Perform sometimes low number heavy or high number lighter repetitions for a given number of sets/reps.
3. Run, Swim, Do Cartwheels, Jumping Jacks, Skip Rope, Ride a Bike, etc, etc, etc for "Cardio" or to lose fat.
4. Do various gymnastics strength and skill type work to help develop the upper body, including ring work.
5. Perform feats of strength.

The only way crossfit potentially differs from this model of bodybuilding is perhaps the part where they would combine running and weightlifting/calisthenics into one workout and perform workouts for time.

So, basically, crossfit can be good. If you're training for sport, your GPP should probably be geared towards that sport if you choose to do GPP at all, though it's probably a good idea too. Crossfit is about the same as old old school bodybuilding if you're not training for sport or career, and probably not the best choice for specific sports training.
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Old 05-19-2009, 10:59 PM   #165
Dave Van Skike
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something,something,WCABTAMDCFModalDomainspatialin tellegenve.....

there is also a little something called nose hairs. they can be measured and can be improved, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with strongman or running or WCABTAMDCFModal,...

so technically, you win.
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:02 PM   #166
Arien Malec
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Stop, please.
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Old 05-20-2009, 05:17 AM   #167
Justin McCallon
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This is frustrating because no matter how many times I say it, my point is not sinking in. I have even tried making analogies.

I have two points AND NO OTHER POINTS AT ALL. They are (1) that you can improve WCOBTAMD, and (2) that you can have a contest (the CF Games -- kinda like how a strongman contest tests strength) to test who has the highest WCOBTAMD.
Note: This is like saying "you can improve strength." And then it would be like you guys are actually arguing against that and I HAVE NO IDEA WHY?! It is a very very very very simple, easily agreeable point.

I guess that because CrossFit uses the terminology "WCOBTAMD" that whenever I say it people all of a sudden want to make me defend every thing CF stands for. And why do I have to use WCOBTAMD over and over again? Because nobody accepted the fact that "fitness" is WCOBTAMD, and I want to try as hard as I can to talk about CONCEPTS and not terms. Dave's original argument was that "fitness cannot be improved." My argument was that you CAN improve WCOBTAMD.

Here are some points I'm not making:
CrossFit is good. NOT MAKING THIS POINT.
CrossFit is the best way to increase WCOBTAMD. NOT MAKING THIS POINT.
Improving WCOBTAMD will help you with your sport. NOT MAKING THIS POINT.

Quote:
YES, crossfit can be worthwhile
I never argued this. I tried as hard as I could to say that I was not talking about CF at all.


Quote:
we're talking about sports performance here.
Who is "we?" Because if it includes me, then no. Again, I have said time and time again that I am NOT arguing against this. Can you find any quote from me in the past 3 pages that shows I am arguing this?

Quote:
If you're not training for ANYTHING IN PARTICULAR, sport or career, then you are doing what is classically known as "Bodybuilding" in the pre-steroids, even pre-contest era.
People that train to improve WCOBTAMD as their sole goal ARE training for something in particular. They can compete in the CF Games.
This is like saying "if your sole goal is to be a strongman then you are not training for anything in particular, so you're bodybuilding." In fact, you are training for strongman!

And come on, someone post a training routine from a pre 1960's bodybuilder (or anyone) that looks legitimately similar to the main site CF WODs.
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Old 05-20-2009, 08:22 AM   #168
Gant Grimes
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I might ban the next person who writes "work capacity across blah blah blah." I'm embarrassed that I now know the acronym WCOBTAMD.

Since you have two points, Justin, I'll respond and hopefully help this go away. Hint: brief arguments are usually more effective and better understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin McCallon View Post
(1) that you can improve WCOBTAMD
Yes. You can improve this ad infinitum. If you add in endurance juggling, hanging by your feet from trees, and miming with a weight vest, you could "improve" this even more.

I realize you're not arguing for it, but you're getting resistance because most people here feel that, as a goal, improved WCOBTAMD, once your work your way through it, is stupid.

We all have our niche, general as it may be. Does an elephant need to learn to climb? Does a turtle need to work on its speed? Does nature really punish the specialist? A quick glance through the plant and animal kingdoms will tell you this is a very silly idea.

Improving WCOBTAMD is basically spending your time attaining half-assed competence in bunch of things that suck and a few that are cool. Most here would rather spend their time on the stuff that's important to them.

Quote:
(2) that you can have a contest (the CF Games -- kinda like how a strongman contest tests strength) to test who has the highest WCOBTAMD.
Theoretically, yes. But you'd need about 20 events over 10 days of competition. Until that happens the CF Games is merely an exhibition of randomly selected athletic skill.

Quote:
Because nobody accepted the fact that "fitness" is WCOBTAMD, and I want to try as hard as I can to talk about CONCEPTS and not terms.
Because it's not. Fitness is the necessary mental, physical, and emotional capability to achieve the job at hand. If you're a CFer, fitness is improved WCOBTAMD. If you're a bodybuilder, fitness is a good physique, good pharmaceuticals, and a good front double biceps pose. If you're a surgeon, fitness is a big brain, steady hand, and laser-like focus over hours. If you're a wrestler, fitness is speed, power, strength endurance, and quickness. If you're a bum, fitness is a bottle of cheap gin and a park bench to sleep on.
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Last edited by Gant Grimes : 05-20-2009 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:35 AM   #169
Michael Houghton
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I was at the cert, and one of the interesting points brought up was that the general physical preparedness you get from CrossFit allows you to be more efficient at learning the skills that are particular for your sport. The athlete needs to be able to work for long periods of time at a particular skill in order to get better at it. If they are unable to do a cone drill 4 or 5 times in a row without being wrecked, doing that drill is worthless. I think that this is the basic premise of using CrossFit and then gearing the workouts towards Football sport specific times, exercises, etc.

Please excuse me if I just made no sense at all, just a thought.
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Old 05-20-2009, 09:36 AM   #170
William McDaniel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gant Grimes View Post
If you're a bum, fitness is a bottle of cheap gin and a park bench to sleep on.
That is my new favorite quote of all time. Well done sir!
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